Too fancy? (O8)

__Q__ · #1 02-06-2005, 12:47 PM

Party Poker 0.5/1 Omaha/8 (3 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (3 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, Button folds, SB 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB calls.

River: (8.50 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB calls.

Final Pot: 12.50 BB

Ok, here was my thinking. On the flop, when the SB bet, I was almost certian he had a low draw. I raised to knock out the button and take the lead in the betting. I figured that I had some outs for a high hand, and if the low hand didn't come in, I could get him to fold. (I'd seen him fold on the river when no low came a couple times)

Was this a good play, or am I kidding myself?

Manzanita · #2 02-06-2005, 07:48 PM

Q,

I'm quite new to the game but I'll take a stab at this hand.

Flop: You put the SB on a low draw. If accurate then I think raising here is a mistake. You can't win low and you only have a draw for high. I see little value to knocking the BB out at this point. I think just calling here is the better play.

Turn: If the SB was going for low he just got there. But since the SB 3-bet on the flop he may have a decent high hand too. While your straight is good now it could be vulnerable. I wouldn't raise here either.

River: This is not a good card for you. The SB has played his hand strong all of the way; assuming that he is a rational player my guess is that he has a strong hand (which could be high or low but probably not both given his preflop action). I realize that you have a low hand, too, but it is really marginal. Again, I would just call and hope to take half the pot.

-- Manzanita

mosquito · #3 02-06-2005, 08:02 PM

You don't really want to play heads up for half
the pot. Really.

There is a good argument for folding on the flop,
since it looks likely that 1/2 the pot is the best
you can hope for.

You win headsup by 3/4 the pot, or scooping.

Beavis68 · #4 02-06-2005, 09:46 PM

Ok I was gonna ream you for this play, but since it was 3 handed..... I have no idea.

Steve-o · #5 02-07-2005, 01:27 AM

Instead of raising you should fold on the flop.

In order to make your straight it has to make a low possible, you have a terrible low and are at best winning 1/2 the pot. Raising is the worst play, you get the pot heads up where making your hand means at best, AT BEST you win 1/2 of a 2 player raked pot.

BadBatsuMaru · #6 02-07-2005, 10:01 AM

I could be totally wrong seeing as I'm so new to O8, but I just look at my pot odds like any other hand. You have an open-ender to half the pot, so your 8 outs give you 4.75 : 1 to make the hand. That's normally good enough implied odds to see the turn 3 way when someone's betting into you; if you were drawing at the whole pot, you'd be getting slightly better than 4 : 1 since the button might see the turn, too, but you're getting about 6.5 : 1 implied. But then you have to realize that in a split pot you're now only getting slightly better than 2 : 1, or 3 : 1 implied at best, which is a clear fold with an open-ender.

I've really started to like O8, and I do pretty well at O8 micros. The only thing that continually frustrates me is people who drive everybody out on a low draw. I've seen it happen several times that I have A2 UTG and flop 4 to the nut low with 5-6 people still in the pot. I'll bet out for value if the table is being particularly passive (at some tables seeing 5-way flops checked all the way around isn't rare, and I don't want that to happen), and then the guy to my left raises it up! Do I fold here? I don't know! Now almost everybody folds, I have to call another bet, and it's 3 way with me drawing at low! Logically I think "this guy has to have a made high hand at least, right?" so I call the bet, the turn makes my low, I check to the raiser who bets, then the other two of us call. Same on the turn. Then at the showdown I'm splitting low with the raiser who also had A2! Idiots!

Moneyline · #7 02-07-2005, 11:33 AM

I would rather call on the flop. You are basically looking for a 2 or a 7. An ace or a 4 or two running spades might also be good cards for you (particularly the A). Nevertheless, I think you aren't going to win 1/2 the pot without one of these specific cards, so I would rather call. If you are fairly certain this player will fold a missed low draw on the river, I don't think you need to set that bluff up now. IMO just bluffing on the river should be sufficient.

Edit: I think it's also worth noting that if you make you hand you have a good chance to scoop. Just because you put SB on a low doesn't necessarily mean that is what SB holds. In addition, one of your outs (the 2) will probably scoop for you since it ruins the most likely low draw... this is also why an A is probably good for you too (but not as good).

Yads · #8 02-07-2005, 12:03 PM

Fold the flop, your low draw sucks and your high draw is not good.

__Q__ · #9 02-07-2005, 02:18 PM

Yeah. This is what I was thinking too as I looked back on the hand. My draws were really crappy. At the time, I knew I had a few outs, and I felt like I could steam roll the other two players out of the pot. I really thought that most of the profit of this play would come not from hitting a draw, but rather from getting them to fold. I kind of wish I hadn't hit the perfect card on the turn for experiments sake.

How do you guys play situations where just a couple other people are in the pot. Keep in mind, these weren't people raising under the gun. It was a late limper and a small blind. This probably happens a lot at higher limits, but at the .5/1.00 game, there are usually at least six people in the pot. In hold'em, I win with plays like these--Just being agressive, in small pots, against people who like to fold.

Does it ever pay to try to just run some out of a pot? (I sure hope so, it would be a nice change up from drawing to the nuts all the time).