Hand vs Josh. / Sthief / Moderator of doom

[DeathDonkey]

5 handed, one fold, I raise T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] folded to Josh in the BB who calls.

Flop is 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and I get checkraised, I call.

Turn is 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Josh bets and I raise (what should I do if he 3 bets and should I have 3 bet the flop instead? Anyone think I should just call down?). He calls.

River is 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and I check behind. Who likes a bet here?

Maybe a boring hand but any comments appreciated,
DeathDonkey

[Lmn55d]

don't like the turn raise at all. It just lets him fold 5x and 6x. Now if you don't think he would check/call or bet the river with these hands thats not really a problem and you'd rather him fold his 5 outer. If you think he'd check/call or bet the river with those hands you really want him in

Thats also a flop some guys like to checkraise Arag on. Arag has 3 outs against you so if you don't think josh is gonna bet or call the river with arag (which he wont) then him folding that is fine.

You gotta fold to a 3bet but you sacrifice some 2-out equity which sucks slightly.

Flop 3bet is good if you think he will call down with his 5x and 6x hands thinking you 3bet for free card or something like that. If he will do this I don't think he's gonna call the river so 3betting only gets you one more sb over calling down (depending on what josh does on the river with a pair of 5s or 6s)


I just call down all the way and hope he bets or calls the river with a small pair

[Danenania]

Lol. We rule.

[Lmn55d]

fo shizzle

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
don't like the turn raise at all. It just lets him fold 5x and 6x. Now if you don't think he would check/call or bet the river with these hands thats not really a problem and you'd rather him fold his 5 outer. If you think he'd check/call or bet the river with those hands you really want him in

Thats also a flop some guys like to checkraise Arag on. Arag has 3 outs against you so if you don't think josh is gonna bet or call the river with arag (which he wont) then him folding that is fine.

You gotta fold to a 3bet but you sacrifice some 2-out equity which sucks slightly.

Flop 3bet is good if you think he will call down with his 5x and 6x hands thinking you 3bet for free card or something like that. If he will do this I don't think he's gonna call the river so 3betting only gets you one more sb over calling down (depending on what josh does on the river with a pair of 5s or 6s)


I just call down all the way and hope he bets or calls the river with a small pair

[/ QUOTE ]


IMO, if I can fold a 5 or 6 to him, then either I'm not semi-bluffing or bluffing the flop enough, or he isn't bluffing the turn enough. I'm checkraising the flop with top pair, a set, a draw, bottom pair, middle pair, two pair, etc. TT is looking nice against this range. he also should know that some of my range includes weak made hands, A high, and semi-bluffs, and maybe occasionally pure bluffs, which means that I will have some better hands that can fold to a raise when he doesn't have anything, and in turn that makes me have to pay off more lightly to compensate.

[TStoneMBD]

on a somewhat related note, josh, if you were going to call the turn raise with a nonqueen pair what do you think about a turn 3bet/checkfold river line?

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
on a somewhat related note, josh, if you were going to call the turn raise with a nonqueen pair what do you think about a turn 3bet/checkfold river line?

[/ QUOTE ]

I was thinking about that before if I had a hand like 99, when they were saying he should fold TT to a 3-bet. He should fold TT to a 3-bet, whcih means I should 3-bet something like A6 since if 4-bet I'm not folding many outs, I could get him to fold a better hand, if he calls it I know he has me beat (except when he decides to bluff hearts on the river, but that would be ballsy), and I make him fold a 6-outer instead of letting him either take a free showdown or vlaue bet if he hits it.

[dave44]

[ QUOTE ]
He should fold TT to a 3-bet, whcih means I should 3-bet something like A6 since if 4-bet I'm not folding many outs, I could get him to fold a better hand, if he calls it I know he has me beat (except when he decides to bluff hearts on the river, but that would be ballsy), and I make him fold a 6-outer instead of letting him either take a free showdown or vlaue bet if he hits it.

[/ QUOTE ]
On this board, the I think you can knock out 77-JJ and A9, K9 with a turn raise a decent amount, though its tough to give him credit for those hands as much as others which are much more likely. Also, he could be raising a draw here which he won't fold.

A 3-bet does haver merit though but I'd like to have a good draw. Ace-rag of hearts would be a good one, or if you'd try the flop check-raise with JT that'd be a good one, too. A6 I'm not sure about- I think you'd be better off calling down or calling and folding the river.

[dave44]

[ QUOTE ]
on a somewhat related note, josh, if you were going to call the turn raise with a nonqueen pair what do you think about a turn 3bet/checkfold river line?

[/ QUOTE ]
Just saying non-queen pair is too vague IMO here. Many of Josh's non-queen pairs are strong enough to take to showdown here, so why forgo that EV? If you drew the line and said that pairs below X are not profitable to call the turn with, those would be the ones you'd want to bluff 3-bet with (I'd prefer a non-pocket pair though so you have more outs). I also like the turn 3-bet with a draw that can't win unimproved.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
on a somewhat related note, josh, if you were going to call the turn raise with a nonqueen pair what do you think about a turn 3bet/checkfold river line?

[/ QUOTE ]
Just saying non-queen pair is too vague IMO here. Many of Josh's non-queen pairs are strong enough to take to showdown here, so why forgo that EV? If you drew the line and said that pairs below X are not profitable to call the turn with, those would be the ones you'd want to bluff 3-bet with (I'd prefer a non-pocket pair though so you have more outs). I also like the turn 3-bet with a draw that can't win unimproved.

[/ QUOTE ]


read my response to his, because i think he and i are on the same page and i elaborated a little more.

my EV in this situation is a weighted average (weighted by his types of hands) of the cause and effect of each of my actions. the best play is the one that, on average, has the biggest upside over the rest. sometimes, of two completely different lines, one HAS to be better. say I 3-bet the turn. if he has a hand worth 4-betting, i have to fold but almost certainly (on this board especially) folded very few outs. this is no different from calling the turn and river. in each cause i lose 2, and i give up very little equity by folding the turn. so while getting to showdown and folding to a 4-bet are completely different (and i know i always preach GET TO SHOWDOWN), they will have the same net effect. the times he calls I'm usually beat but I still get to draw. my line is so weird that of the rare times I have him beat, he won't often bluff, so again, against a hand like TPTK that won't cap the turn, the net effect of raising vs calling is 0. the big advantage comes from the times he has a slightly better made hand and folds, or will fold a 6-outer rather than getting to check behind the river. I steal about 1/4 of the pot plus a bet I'd have to give up on the river to pay him off.

so as it turns out, while these are two drastically different lines, most of the time (90%+) it'll work out the same. the best decision comes from the times they won't be the same. in this case, 3-betting is worse when he will bluff the river or cap when I have outs. 3-betting is better when he has AK (and I have something like 62 for middle pair no kicker) or TT-77, A6, K6 and i dont have thoes beat