Did I chicken out with my flush draw on the turn?

hornsandspurs · #1 11-27-2005, 11:59 PM

I think I played this hand well up to the turn. When the board paired, I got gun shy. Did I just flat out wuss out, or can an argument be made for calling here?

This is my second post tonight regarding flush draw flops. I am still trying to figure out how to maximize the wins with these hands.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 raises, 1 fold, Hero calls, 3 folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero raises, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 3-bets, Hero caps, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (12.25 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

River: (16.25 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 22.25 BB

masse75 · #2 11-28-2005, 12:19 AM

UTG+1 could have flopped the str8 or be pushing the 2nd nut flush. I think either way he'd be looking to drive out anyone else that's drawing to a better hand.

I'd raise the turn to see where I stand. With two others happily cold-calling along, you're getting the equity.

afk · #3 11-28-2005, 12:36 AM

What is your read on the preflop raiser? Depending on this read I think cold-calling is the worst option. Reraise or fold.

Since you made it to the flop, why are you raising it?

Why would you raise the turn?

You played the turn and river well but misplayed preflop and flop in my opinion - except the flop cap is good.

Songwind · #4 11-28-2005, 02:47 AM

*grunch*

I think I call here. Villain has something he likes a LOT on a Queen-high board. I'm thinking QQ, AA, or KK. Of course, if he has QQ you're boned no matter what, and even if he doesn't, his level of aggression suggests that if you raise, it's coming back 3 to you. Right now you're getting 13 to 1 to call. 6.5:1 on a raise, and if you get 3-bet it'll be what, 7:1? You've got 9 outs to the flush, but villain is definitely playing like he's got the makings of a full house, so you can't count them all... I don't like 3-betting this turn. Maybe I'm too passive.

cold_cash · #5 11-28-2005, 02:59 AM

Raising this turn would be bad on several levels.

The first flop raise is also no good. Look at the action. Why are you trying to isolate yourself against what is probably a much better hand, while driving out potential second-best-hand-makers?

If you were on the button with these guys inbetween you and the bettor, that's when you raise.

Pre-flop is also a concern.

macdaddy991 · #6 11-28-2005, 04:09 AM

anyone else muck this PF?

Amerretto · #7 11-28-2005, 05:25 AM

*Grunch*
I would have been tempted to fold this preflop, at a guess the raiser either has you dominated, or has a high pair.

Anyway, on the flop, I would have been tempted to just call, a raise is possibly +ev, but only if everybody (as in this case) comes along for the ride.

Rest is fine, UTG+1 has to show you QQ or JJ.

detruncate · #8 11-28-2005, 06:53 AM

The pf play is not default. You need to justify it based on the players already in the hand and the likely actions behind you. I most likely fold.

Just call the flop lead. If the pot ends up raised and 3+ way you can think about pumping your draw for value. Raising doesn't make it more likely that you're going to win, and though you might get calls anyway given the coordinated flop there's no point risking it.

Raising the turn would be stupid. UTG+1 has taken all you've served up on a coordinated board and asked for more. The cost of calling the turn will be at least partially compensated by overcalls so you certainly don't want to knock them out and/or make it more expensive for you. You have nothing to protect and no equity edge to push. Call good sir or madam.

Way to make your hand on the river.

#9 11-28-2005, 07:47 AM

grunch

fold preflop

flop was good ^_^

call turn is correct, that 8 possibly boats a set so you could even be drawing dead here, but you have the equity to continue

i just call the river as well, there is still a good chance you are behind. when you are you are behind you probably lose more when you get 3bet as well which makes it more painful. and when you are ahead you could only manage 1 more BB as you could lose the overcall.

edit: actually you flop such a monster draw a call to keep people in wouldnt be a mistake, although you got lucky with the CCers.

POKhER · #10 11-28-2005, 08:00 AM

Ok, Maybe i'm tired...

Preflop, Why you cold calling? FOLD IT!

Why the hell did you raise the flop?
-Kills the field,
-You're Drawing,
-You have no value if the field die
-You're behind.

Turn is fine,
River is standard.

I'm so baffled as to why people are happy with it!?!?!?!