Serious Rant about telling people about 2+2 (Long) but w/ content IMO

[nomadtla]

To those of you don't know this is a serious response to This Thread. I was gonna put it there but then the mods locked it. I thought about it and thought that pehaps a good discussion could come from what I have to say here. MODS if this thread deteriorates then by all means lock it. I don't like starting posts unless I think something good will come of them and that's why I made this one, but if it goes to a NC thread then I would be the first to promote locking it. Some may think this should be in the zoo or Poker Theory (and it probably should) but since micro's is my home and micros is where the original post was made I think it's appropriate here.

To all who promoted that fish should not be told about 2+2 I bring only one argument. To get good at this game you have to have the discipline and drive to become good at it. We like to pretend we are in some secret society here, with our own lingo, and that's what makes us winning players. That is just not the case, the one thing that seperates winning players and fish in this game is the unending desire to improve their game. The fish may say they want to do better or make money, but it is denial. As Schoonmaker discusses in "Psychology Of Poker" this game and the whole gambling industry is built on denial. The people who really want to improve their game, will improve their game (probably at least passing through here in the process). The fish will deny they are lossers or think reading one book makes them gods. We (should) all know this game is not easy and is not a get rich quick scheme. I wonder how many 2+2 accounts have been started and gotten in about 50-100 posts and then abandoned. Any fish who comes here and doesn't want to become a winner will not last long, or will not improve much; and the ones who do want to become winners will eventually improve because if they have the drive and determination it doesn't matter if we tell them or not they will find a way to get better. That's what winners do to stay winners. Just about every poker book I've read references 2+2 publishing and most say this is the top forum for strategy disscussion. Yet still there are plenty of fish for us all. The only thing that wories me is the fish that would stay fish but find their way here, realize how hard this game is, and quit poker cause they don't have that drive. I'm not trying to offend anyone, just trying to point out that bad players are not bad because they don't post here, or don't know here exists, or don't read poker books, their bad because deep down they don't want to get better. The ones who want to get better will, by whatever means they can, and that may lead them here it may not.
I assume all of us are here to get better, and that's what I want to see. We have some great minds here and many of us work very hard at this game. But we must remember we're not winners because we post at 2+2, but rather we post at 2+2 because we want to be winners. So damn it stand up and be winners people. This game is hard, but we're all here to improve, and help eachother out. Find what you want to do with this game and put every ounce of energy you can spare into that goal. We all have what it takes, but do we have the drive to develop it. Let's kick some a** and play some poker. I want to sit at the table and fear all of you, and I want to be good enough that you fear me when I sit at your table.
"You are not unique snowflakes", but you can make yourself into winning players. So do it, and stop complaining about things that "in the long run" mean nothing.
Maybe I just wanted to start where I did, so that I could lead into a Tyler Durden motivational speech. Maybe I just needed to hear that speech myself. Maybe some of you do too. Maybe this thread is worthless in which case I appologize for wasting the readers time and the Mod's time to lock it.

Thanks for listening guys
Thomas

PS. Edit because I forgot: Thank all of you for helping me work at this game and become a winning player thanks to your help and encouragement. More than anything that's what this post was meant to show, was my appreciation for you guys esspescially the ML crowd for showing me how hard this game is but encouraging me to keep pushing, even if you don't know you helped me and I appreciate it

[slipoker]

Amen

[adsman]

I want to chime in with something here. We have no 'right' to the information that we find here at 2+2. It is not 'ours', to be protected from other people. I believe that the more people who read books and become better players, the better it is for us. Because the vast majority of people who read poker books only improve their game a fraction. It takes serious study to understand this stuff. But that fraction that they improve may enable them to stay in the game longer and get more enjoyment out of it. A heavy loser might turn into a slight loser and stay in the game for a far longer period. Which is great for us.

My two cents.

[benkath1]

nh.

I think your analysis of fish is dead on the (dead) money. My best friend, I spotted him $100 to get started bonus whoring. Basiclly cleared the first $100 and said "here, go forth and prosper". Moran is broke after 2 months. I said, go buy SSHE and play smart. It's like he doesn't want to win.

I think that is what the majority of the players we are playing against mantality (sp?) is. They want to win, but don't want to have to try to. Let em come and lurk.

We are all here to help. If someone wants to get better, they will. If they don't want it, they wont. Poker is a complex game, and to get really good at it, you have to put the time in and do the work.

[nomadtla]

[ QUOTE ]
I want to chime in with something here. We have no 'right' to the information that we find here at 2+2. It is not 'ours', to be protected from other people. I believe that the more people who read books and become better players, the better it is for us. Because the vast majority of people who read poker books only improve their game a fraction. It takes serious study to understand this stuff. But that fraction that they improve may enable them to stay in the game longer and get more enjoyment out of it. A heavy loser might turn into a slight loser and stay in the game for a far longer period. Which is great for us.

My two cents.

[/ QUOTE ]

At least worth 4 cents but I'm not sure of the exchange rate. Good point and a good expansion on my thoughts to about players becoming marginally better

[Greg J]

I agree with pretty much everything you said. I'm not gonna lock it, though it does seem more suited for the zoo than here. (If you want me to move it there, let me know.)

[nomadtla]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with pretty much everything you said. I'm not gonna lock it, though it does seem more suited for the zoo than here. (If you want me to move it there, let me know.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I was thinking of (x-posting) it there as well. I want to leave it here as well cause I mainly wrote it to encourage and make people think here in the micros, since this is where I learned most and you guys are my homeboys.

[HouseCalls]

Bravo -
I still have a few posts to go to make it past your 100 post marker. I opened my account here years ago but never really used it until the past month. I've learned far more in a month here than in the past two years just occasionally reading books on my own. My next step is the sessiion review you set up. The same way you have older vetrans to thank for your learning I expect I'll have you to thank for mine. And if all goes well maybe I'll help someone else someday.
And so it goes...

[bwana devil]

ill share w/ you my tiny sample size. ive sent the 2+2 link to 4 of my friends who play online or who i play w/ in a home game and none of them have registered.

i became friendly w/ a guy in a B&M and told him about the site. he registered and posted about 5 times and then stopped.

all the bad players know there are books at the book store on how to play. most just choose not to go read them. im w/ you nomad, tell all the bad players about this site. it doesnt bother me.

finding out about this site is the easy part. it's the hours of freakin reading that's a pain. it comes down to motivation.

btw more paragraph breaks would make the original post so much easier to read.

bwana

[milesdyson]

yeah i talk to my friends about some poker theory crap. we all watch poker on tv, and when i see someone make a glaringly obvious bad play, i say something about it. most of the time, though, they just say, "well the other guy had XX.. it can't be that bad dude - he folded to the bet"

HAY GUYS THEY DONT KNOW EACHOTHERS CARDS.

roflroflrofl