Time to get out, right?

jtr · #1 11-06-2004, 02:16 PM

OK -- I think it was time to leave this hand, but I'm interested in whether you guys agree. Button was a kind of grade 2 maniac, not totally insane, but very aggressive with marginal holdings -- although I had seen him slow down when challenged. On the flop I thought he could well be pumping a flush draw, so I pulled a stop-and-go when the blank came on the turn.

MP2 was slightly too loose but otherwise not too awful, so I was just starting to be concerned about what he was merrily cold-calling with.

When button 3-bet the turn, and MP2 was clearly along for the ride, folding seemed absolutely the better part of valour. Comments?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Button raises, SB calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (11 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Button bets, SB folds, Hero raises, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, Button 3-bets, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (10 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP2 checks, Button bets, Hero raises, MP2 calls, Button 3-bets, Hero folds, MP2 calls.

Sadat X · #2 11-06-2004, 02:22 PM

I usually don't play this hand pf unless the game is very passive. On the flop I like the CR, but I would bet out on the turn (stop and go) if you're worried about the button pumping the flush draw. The check-raise is not a viable move with your kicker.

Haupt_234 · #3 11-06-2004, 02:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I usually don't play this hand pf unless the game is very passive.

[/ QUOTE ]

You should try playing it more. In most games, especially 2/4, this hand is very strong from any position since there are so many limpers and multiway pots.

Haupt_234

Rubeskies · #4 11-06-2004, 02:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I usually don't play this hand pf unless the game is very passive.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm playing this hand preflop even in the tighter more agressive 3/6 games. I'm pretty sure most will agree.

jtr · #5 11-06-2004, 06:21 PM

Sorry, Sadat: good point, it wasn't really a stop-and-go as I check-raised the turn instead of betting out. Is there a name for that?

Anyway, interesting that you say you're unhappy with playing QJs. Everything I know about it suggests that it's worth playing for one bet from any position in the Party 2/4 game but your mileage may vary.

Was kind of hoping to get some comments about my fold to the turn 3-bet. Do others agree that this was the right time to abandon the hand? Should I have got out earlier (doubt it). Or should I have called down? Sadat, you seem to be suggesting that betting out on the turn would have been a wiser move -- I can see the argument. Would you have folded to a raise in that case?

Cheers,
--JTR.

Nick C · #6 11-06-2004, 07:13 PM

I'd probably start calling down on the turn. If the semi-maniac only has two spades and an overcard or overcards, I'm thinking he'll probably bet his draw again anyway. You must've thought so too, since you check-raised the turn. I'm not sure that the main advantage of check-raising -- that it puts more pressure on MP2 -- counts for that much here because (1) MP2 called two cold once already with similar odds and probably will do so again, and (2) I think there's a good chance you're behind Button (he's done nothing but show strength so far, including preflop).

As the hand played out, I'm not folding to the turn 3-bet getting 17:1. Button may have a set, but he also may have TPTK or an overpair. You're probably behind, and you could be drawing dead. But you could also have as many as 5 outs. If you have as many as 3 outs (which very well could be exactly how many you have), you should call.

Brunger · #7 11-06-2004, 07:41 PM

I don't really understand the turn check raise. Stop and go or check-call bet river. Even slight maniacs don't usually three bet the turn without something but the pot is big and you should call with a probable 5 outs. I am not sure about the river but given he is a slight manic I would probably call(without improvement) and pray to see AK of spades.

chesspain · #8 11-06-2004, 08:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
As the hand played out, I'm not folding to the turn 3-bet getting 17:1. Button may have a set, but he also may have TPTK or an overpair. You're probably behind, and you could be drawing dead. But you could also have as many as 5 outs. If you have as many as 3 outs (which very well could be exactly how many you have), you should call.

[/ QUOTE ]

The above is not only correct, but is also the very nice way of saying "terrible fold."

helpmeout · #9 11-06-2004, 08:50 PM

Dont be greedy against maniacs.

I bet the turn then call down, if you improve on the river bet again.

MisterKing · #10 11-06-2004, 09:21 PM

THe MP1 & MP2 players appear to be very passive. If true, then you have an easy line, I think. If you bet/call the turn and check/call the river, you can see a showdown at a very low price... so low in fact that its only one BB more than your fold. The extra bets coming in from the MP players, combined with the possibility that Button is pumping a 4-flush, make this my preferred approach.

And as for playing QJs, I think its fine UTG+1 pre-flop, as long as most flops at the table are coming down for 2 bets or less. If you can reasonably anticipate having to call two more cold when it gets back to you preflop, this is not a worthwhile hand to play.