KK with a double-paired turn

sweetjazz · #1 03-02-2005, 02:12 AM

Villain in this hand is a 58/11/0.7.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 1 fold, UTG folds, MP calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP calls.

Turn: (4 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP raises, Hero calls.

River: (8 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10 BB

There ain't much to say about the preflop or flop play. And I am committed to the river call when I make the turn call. So should I have called the turn check raise?

I'll post my thoughts and results tomorrow sometime.

Nemesis · #2 03-02-2005, 02:49 AM

Hmmm.... If you call the turn check raise you're commited to a showdown for sure. I think calling the turn check raise is questionable. This guys stats don't make me think he's on a steal, and at 1/2 i've learned to respect that kind of play. With that said i'm a LAG and 3 bet him or check raise the river on him and fold to a cap or 3 bet.

sweetjazz · #3 03-03-2005, 12:05 AM

I came across this hand while going through my PT database. My first reaction was, "What was I thinking during this hand?" I can't say for sure since I don't remember the texture of the table at the time, but I think there is a good principle on which I based my action.

I called down (as indicated in the original pot). Do people see why a call-down is correct here against many opponents, even some who are somewhat passive?

Since I didn't get much reaction to this post, I'll wait for some more replies before explaining the "principle" that I used to call-down here. It may be obvious, but my original intuition looking back at this hand was that I should have folded the turn raise. BTW, raising (i.e. 3-betting the turn) is the worst play here.

RunDownHouse · #4 03-03-2005, 12:11 AM

I suppose you thought he might be on either an A or a PP higher than 33 but lower than 88 and that he was thinking you had overs.

I'd fold the turn.

sweetjazz · #5 03-03-2005, 02:09 AM

I called down, expecting to lose. I was pleasantly surprised when my KK held up. Villain had Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. (Of course, this particular result proves nothing whatsoever.)

I was getting 4-to-1 after the turn raise (not check raise as I said in my original post...whoops) to see a showdown. Here are the reasons why I think calling down is correct:

* Villain could be betting with what he thinks is a strong hand that you beat. He could have a lower PP or an ace. When he has such a hand, villain will likely bet the river as well, since your call of the turn raise suggests that you don't have a full house.
* Even some passive players like to bluff some of the time. When bad players decide to bluff, they often continue bluffing until the hand is over (or resort to calling down when raised back). In total, you're likely gonna get "paid off" when you have a better hand, so you don't lose too much check-calling the river (compared to being able to call behind if you had position).
* Bad players don't know how to bluff when a scare card like an ace comes on the turn, because they're scared you might have it. But even a lot of bad players notice that you play a lot of high cards. Otherwise passive opponents will often make a play at you on an 8833 board.
* If you are behind, you have two outs to improve to (probably) the best hand. If you are ahead, villain has at most three outs to improve to the best hand.
* An added bonus, something that doesn't make me want to call down but is a nice benefit of doing so, is that when villain has an 8 or 3, he's going to like the result and be more inclined to continue to play weak hands preflop. This is good. (Don't overestimate the importance of this observation; villain is likely to continue to play weak hands preflop no matter what we do.)

I don't mean to suggest that one has to call this down against every opponent. But I had a strong hand on a board that is screaming for someone to bluff at. The default line should be to call down, and this villain's stats don't suggest to me that I should change that line.

If he were a reliably 58/4/0.2ish player, then I think a fold is warranted. But against this kind of opponent -- relatively passive but capable of aggression -- you should not fold your overpair on this double-paired board. It becomes a bigger and bigger mistake as the other player's aggression goes up.

Just a pot isn't "big" doesn't mean that you should always give up just because you suspect you are behind. (I still expect to win less than 50% of the time here; but I expect to win more than 20% of the time.)