Philosophy Book Club: Ribbon Cutting

"btw what in the nature of the reasonable belief that gets you to your conclusion that the external world exists?"

I can see it.

[RJT]

I am not part of the system. I’ll post my way. You guys who are part of the system can speak your language.


SK does say that doubt and faith are lifelong tasks. What is important to him is that even though we never get rid of all doubt (Abraham’s “…left hand was clenched in despair…” in the final version) if we have faith things will work out. God will fulfill his promise. And God does indeed show to Abraham that He is a God to be believe in - he let’s Abraham sacrifice the ram instead.

Abraham in the original story had faith in God. Whether he fully understood God’s reason for asking the unreasonable ( requiring Abraham to kill his own son) he obeyed him at any rate.

I am reminded of a quote from Simone Weil (I had posted this same quote a while ago on the forum, sorry to be redundant):

[ QUOTE ]
If it were conceivable that in obeying God one should bring about one’s own damnation while in disobeying him one could be saved, I should still choose the way of obedience.

[/ QUOTE ]

Weil understood Abraham.

SK goes on to say that even those who have faith, never outgrow doubt.

[ QUOTE ]
When the tried oldster drew near to his last hour, having fought the good fight and kept the faith, his heart was still young enough not to have forgotten that fear and trembling which chastened the youth, which the man indeed held in check, but which no man quite outgrows …

[/ QUOTE ]

But, we can have less doubt the further we go:

[ QUOTE ]
…except as he might succeed at the earliest opportunity in going further. Where these revered figures arrived, that is the point where everybody in our day begins to go further.

[/ QUOTE ]

Abraham is the personification of faith. SK is in awe of him. He wants to understand him. I am not sure if SK says/agrees that even Abraham had a bit of doubt. I think he does say that Abraham has a bit of doubt (“…a tremor passed through his body…” in the final version), but still obeys.

RJT

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
"btw what in the nature of the reasonable belief that gets you to your conclusion that the external world exists?"

I can see it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Don't you ever experience something like seeing in your dreams?

chez

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
I am not part of the system. I’ll post my way. You guys who are part of the system can speak your language.


SK does say that doubt and faith are lifelong tasks. What is important to him is that even though we never get rid of all doubt (Abraham’s “…left hand was clenched in despair…” in the final version) if we have faith things will work out. God will fulfill his promise. And God does indeed show to Abraham that He is a God to be believe in - he let’s Abraham sacrifice the ram instead.

Abraham in the original story had faith in God. Whether he fully understood God’s reason for asking the unreasonable ( requiring Abraham to kill his own son) he obeyed him at any rate.

I am reminded of a quote from Simone Weil (I had posted this same quote a while ago on the forum, sorry to be redundant):

[ QUOTE ]
If it were conceivable that in obeying God one should bring about one’s own damnation while in disobeying him one could be saved, I should still choose the way of obedience.

[/ QUOTE ]

Weil understood Abraham.

SK goes on to say that even those who have faith, never outgrow doubt.

[ QUOTE ]
When the tried oldster drew near to his last hour, having fought the good fight and kept the faith, his heart was still young enough not to have forgotten that fear and trembling which chastened the youth, which the man indeed held in check, but which no man quite outgrows …

[/ QUOTE ]

But, we can have less doubt the further we go:

[ QUOTE ]
…except as he might succeed at the earliest opportunity in going further. Where these revered figures arrived, that is the point where everybody in our day begins to go further.

[/ QUOTE ]

Abraham is the personification of faith. SK is in awe of him. He wants to understand him. I am not sure if SK says/agrees that even Abraham had a bit of doubt. I think he does say that Abraham has a bit of doubt (“…a tremor passed through his body…” in the final version), but still obeys.

RJT

[/ QUOTE ]
I struggle with your system as well, I'm hoping KS will help bridge the gap. Somehow we need to follow both systems and have faith the two will meet somewhere.

I'm confused about the choosing one's own damnation through obeying god. Does that mean eternal damnation or just doing something that damns us in our own eyes but which will be rewarded with eternal salvation?

chez

good luck with the 'swimming whilst wearing a boat' bowl.

[RJT]

Chez,

Hers is an hypothetical. She is being literal, though - eternal damnation. It really is what Abraham is all about. Faith in God even when we don’t understand His reasons.

Of course, her example would never happen. Just as God did not make Abraham go through with what SK calls “a sin” in version III - “He could not comprehend that it was a sin to be willing to offer to God the best thing he possessed…”

Not sure yet what SK means here about the sin thing. I know what he means by sin - just don't get it in context here.

RJT

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What is the basis for the claim that all of our beliefs ultimately rest on faith?

[/ QUOTE ]

Define "belief".

Scott

[/ QUOTE ]

Never mind.

[chezlaw]

RJT,

Maybe I'm getting there. Is Simone Weil saying.

'If all my reason tells me that the act god is ordering me to carry out will lead to my damnation (and not carrying out leads to salvation) then I will cast aside my reason and put my faith in god.'

That makes sense and I can see the parallel with the Abraham story. However the way I read it is:

'If I somehow knew that the act god is ordering me to carry out will lead to my damnation (and not carrying out leads to my salvation) then I would still obey god'

This makes no sense to me. Hopefully you will say its the former or explain the latter.

chez

[DougShrapnel]

Hey guys. Em... this is all I can make out of the prelude. Is this a good summary of the preludes I, II, III, and IV? I am asumming the author is trying to state the ways in which man looks at fiath incorrectly.

1. Man sometimes attemps to disguise faith

2. Man sometimes hides faith

3. Man creates a separation between himself and faith

4. Man sometimes tries to go beyond faith.

[RJT]

Your examples I think just hit me what version 3 is about. I have to gather my thoughts and see if I can put it down concisely. Will post shortly.

[DougShrapnel]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm confused about the choosing one's own damnation through obeying god. Does that mean eternal damnation or just doing something that damns us in our own eyes but which will be rewarded with eternal salvation?

[/ QUOTE ] If I am correct about what prelude 3 is talking about, I think that SK is saying that when you try to look at God thru our own morals/values/perseptions we create a speration between us and our faith. So much is the seperation that SK thinks that man should, if he wishes to be faithful, not look at God thru his own morals, values, or perceptions. So SK says to toss aside the whole "It's my son, and I'd give my life for him.", becuase that would seperate one from faith.