Reraising with AA or KK from BB or SB with 4+ callers

[largos]

Hi,
Although all the books always tell you to reraise with AA or KK no matter what position you have I think it is silly to do so against 4 callers from BB . You are giving them odds to chase if they hit a pair.
Am I wrong?

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
Am I wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. Your equity is great. How often do you hit 2 pair? Your opponents don't hit their 2 pair more often.

[Emoney]

you say that as if they wouldn't chase without odds.

[JaysonWeberFCP]

This is similar to the problem of betting into a known flushdraw.

Yes, He has odds to call you if you bet, but do you want to check and give it too him for free? No. You want to charge them for the draws.

Charge them to see the flop, if they hit a draw so be it.. That's poker.

[JaysonWeberFCP]

most player 2/4 and below think this way in terms of odds

Flushdraw... Good
Straight Draw... Good
Big Pot = Good Odds
Small Pot = ....I can get lucky

[Guruman]

the thinking is this:

with AA or KK you are not only ahead, but way ahead of the bunches of limpers that are in on the action. Mediocre or bad players may limp in any position with a suited face card, a looooow pocket pair, or any ace or king. In order to get ahead of you, they need to use both cards and hit either a set or two pair - both of which are far less likely than a total whiff on the flop.

Other reasons aces and kings are good postflop against many players:

1)win unimproved - again, the opponents will have to use both of their cards to beat you, as pairing up just one will do them no good.

2)set value - top set is a great moneymaking tool against weak players, and this is a spot where you can go for overcalls if you get bet into.

3)domination - your pair of aces immediately ruins the hand of anyone holding Ax - which is the most played hand in hold-em. Kings will do the same to Kx, but are still vulnerable to Ax here. Note that your opponent is drawing to around three outs in this situation though.

4)more domination - you're way ahead of any smaller pocket pair pre-flop here as you both have the same odds to hit or miss a set on the flop (or any subsequent street)

5)conterfeiting - you hold KK and your opponent holds J5. The flop comes 85J, giving your opponent two pair. the turn is an 6. You have 8 outs to win here as any 6, or 8, counterfeits his pair of 5's and the Ks will give you a winning set.

6)redraws - you hold A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], and your opponent holds 89[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. The flop comes 2T3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] giving your opponent a flopped flush. You've now got two streets and 8 outs with which to re-draw on his flush. If the turn pairs the board here you've picked up another 4 outs on the river as well, since you can re-draw to the full house as well. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

lesser hands have to make up a lot of ground to get in front of aces or kings. It does happen, but it happens more when you face multiple opponents, so protect this hand by raising and check-raising the early streets to knock out the drawing hands.

[TheHip41]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi,
Although all the books always tell you to reraise with AA or KK no matter what position you have I think it is silly to do so against 4 callers from BB . You are giving them odds to chase if they hit a pair.
Am I wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]


In a multi way pot, there is no reason to get cute, make 97o pay four bets to see the flop. When the flop is J22, you won't get anymore out of them.

Also, you have the best hand, just keep raising.

[lufbradolly]

You have a big equity edge preflop, you should bet it. I cant think of any reason why i would want to just call. Yes you'll give them odds but your going in with the best hand so your gonna come out with the best hand more often than they are.

[WillMagic]

Yes.

Not raising against 4 limpers is essentially throwing away a big bet.

Will

[CallMeIshmael]

Easy reraise.

Sometimes it is correct to push an edge on a latter street, and give up a known edge now. Your edge here is simply too large not to push.


But... these two comments in the thread:

[ QUOTE ]
you say that as if they wouldn't chase without odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
most player 2/4 and below think this way in terms of odds

Flushdraw... Good
Straight Draw... Good
Big Pot = Good Odds
Small Pot = ....I can get lucky

[/ QUOTE ]


Are flawed arguments.

The argument of: "Dont get cute (for example, by waiting until the turn to raise) because they will call anyway" is not correct.

This all goes back to the FTOP.

When we make a play with the intention of giving up immediate equity in order to protect our hand later (again, this thread is a bad example... for better examples see SSHE or HPFAF) it works even BETTER when they call. People make this mistake all the time on here, imo.

When we present a player who likes to call, with a situation in which the FTOP correct play is to fold, we WANT him to call. We make more money on his calls than we do his folds, because we know that a fold is the correct play.


EDIT: we make these plays so they cant call profitably. NOT so that they DONT call. Huge difference there.