Sometimes being a LAG gets you in trouble.

[LearnedfromTV]

[ QUOTE ]
I am convinced that coldcalling hands like these are a leak for the vast majority of players**, because it requires that you play really well and can often take pots down with nothing (which isn't really possible at that point in the 11r, BTW).


[/ QUOTE ]

I second this. I went through a period where I basically saw the flop with any suited connector through two gapper and a lot of unsuited connectors, especially in raised pots. Also any pair, and a lot of mediocre broadway hands. I was experimenting. My goal was to do as much "outplaying after the flop/getting paid off when I hit a big flop" as I could in order to figure out how much implied odds you really have in these situations. Sometimes I got aggressive whenever I hit a pair, to see how often I could get someone to fold, sometimes I didn't even need a pair. Other times, I folded whenever I missed. In general, I tried to make use of my reads to do a mixture of the two and 'maximize the value of position.' Most of the time, I lost chips doing this, because most of the time the situation isn't right and you either bleed away chips one coldcall at a time or stick your neck out postflop at the wrong time.

My conclusion is that, yes there are ways to extract value from these hands exploiting specific weaknesses that you observe in an opponent , such as tendencies to raise too much and give up when he misses, or tendencies to overplay top pair. But against a typical raiser with typical postflop skills, you are giving up too much by taking 85s against his raising range.

Edit: In other words, deep stack be damned, don't coldcall raises with 85s or even 87s without a read on the raiser and most of the table behind you.

[Ian J]

Um reraise preflop obv. Since you didn't, fold the flop the first time around. When the PFR leads for 1/4 pot into 4 people, he obv. flopped the nuts. You're certainly blessed that he didn't this time ansky.

[ansky451]

[ QUOTE ]
I am convinced that coldcalling hands like these are a leak for the vast majority of players**, because it requires that you play really well and can often take pots down with nothing (which isn't really possible at that point in the 11r, BTW). I've never played with you that I remember so you might very well be an exception, but I would like to throw that out there.


[/ QUOTE ]

That is indeed possible. I'm not going to wave my poker e-penis around and say how I can always outplay my opponent post flop here. This is however, my pretty much "standard" play, as with deep stacks and position I love to put myself in spots like these. If I have a good read on my opponent, and I'm not playing like [censored], I do beleive this is a +EV preflop call.

This seems like more of a style question than anything else.

[ QUOTE ]
FGators,

You read MLGs post. There are rules, but there really aren't. With 100 bbs and position, my cards aren't of all that much importance here. You are grossly misunderstanding the gap concept. I sometimes call AA here, I sometimes call with Q5s here. Deep stacked poker is mostly played on the flop, not preflop gators. You need to open your understanding of NL hold'em. What is the big difference between calling here with AJs, T9s, 22, 99? There isn't much.

This isn't limit hold'em. There are no rules.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you don't trust anything Dan Harrington says?

[MLG]

no. but your understanding of the gap concept is quite flawed. there are reasons not to play this hand here and adanthar highlighted them fairly well. the gap concept is not one of them.

[Dave D]

[ QUOTE ]
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (9 handed) internettexasholdem.com

BB (t6000)
UTG (t63315)
UTG+1 (t12725)
MP1 (t9350)
MP2 (t5075)
MP3 (t14025)
Hero (t17270)
Button (t3855)
SB (t7950)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises to t450</font>, Hero calls t450, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls t375, BB calls t300.

Flop: (t1800) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets t450</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t2400</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to t7500</font>, BB folds, MP3 folds, Hero calls t5100.

I don't think I can/ want to fold to the 3 bet. I don't think there is anything wrong with the preflop call, but I'm open to flaming.

You may discuss now.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get why you'd want to call PF?

I'd be trying to get myself as close to all in as possible on that flop. You even have a str8 flush draw. What's the problem here?

[Dave D]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh yeah sorry, this is the first level after the rebuy period in the 10 rebuy. Player is an unknown.

FWIW I'm not really asking if the flop call is good/bad cause I have no interest in folding there. We can discuss the flop raise/ raise size, and the preflop call as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes me believe even more that you are probbaly way ahead and will get him to call a flop push.

[ansky451]

Dave, I never wanted to discuss the flop decision in particular. Just the hand in general. I called with no real hesitation.

[ansky451]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
FGators,

You read MLGs post. There are rules, but there really aren't. With 100 bbs and position, my cards aren't of all that much importance here. You are grossly misunderstanding the gap concept. I sometimes call AA here, I sometimes call with Q5s here. Deep stacked poker is mostly played on the flop, not preflop gators. You need to open your understanding of NL hold'em. What is the big difference between calling here with AJs, T9s, 22, 99? There isn't much.

This isn't limit hold'em. There are no rules.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you don't trust anything Dan Harrington says?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't play poker with an instruction manual.

[MLG]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't play poker with an instruction manual.

[/ QUOTE ]

you're so bad ass. can I be you.