ATo = +EV in .50/1

[Eidal]

This is in response to a thread Greg J locked in which someone (perhaps him) said that ATo is an instant fold in a 10 max game and a raise in a 6-max game.

I added ATo to my normal limp in mid August (I've played 45k hands since then in .50/1 and 1/2) and right now in my PT it shows:

ATo: Times (304), Avg/Hand (.09), BB/hand (.15).

VPIP (%67), Went to SD (%34), Win $ at SD (%63)

So -- is it a big winner? No. But its almost exactly the same as my KJo. Both of these hands require the ability to lay down top pair, but in a juicy fish-filled game, they are still marginally profitable.

For those nay-sayers who want to refute my sample size, I'm willing to post again in another month if they still are adamant that ATo cannot be played profitably in .50/1.

[istewart]

I fold ATo and KJo in early (and most) middle positions, in general. Saying that they cannot be profitable hands at $.5/1 is ridiculous. ATo in late position is pretty [censored] easy to play.

[aK13]

POSITION

[Shillx]

I would assume that limping ATo is a +EV play at .5/1 as well. It is a pretty clear limp IMO.

Brad

[lautzutao]

Yeah, it depends where you limp from though, as the busty beauty there put so elequently...

Limping UTG is +EV...?? I don't believe it.

[aK13]

I fold it UTG.

I thought the concensus was folding > raising > limping?

Whatever.

btw, to the OP: you have grossly misunderstood the discussion of ATo, since nobody would ever claim ATo to be a -EV hand.

[Shillx]

If AJo is worth a raise or limp UTG, clearly ATo is worth something UTG. Aces fall of quickly but not this quickly in such a weak game.

IMHO, I like ATo in these low games because a) you'll almost always be playing against weaker hands in an unraised pot, b) any AK, AQ, and sometimes AJ will raise it behind and perk up your ears, and c) whether flopping an ace or a ten, it's relatively easy to see where you're at given the action or lack thereof. With an ace-high flop you're getting a lot of ace-rag fish calling down, and with a ten-high flop, although vulnerable to overcards, you will get a lot of action from KT and QT. Plus, add the possible nut-flush/straight draws and backdoor draws, plus the slim chance of winning unimproved, and you get a nice little bit of added value. I imagine in higher limits you'd need to be more judicious, but at .50/$1, I say pop that cork baby.

[David04]

[ QUOTE ]
any AK, AQ, and sometimes AJ will raise it behind and perk up your ears

[/ QUOTE ]
This is terribly wrong. AK will usually 3-bet, AQ occasionally and AJ almost never.

These games are very passive.

[KingOtter]

I think this should have been a contender for the stat thread that Greg made.

I've had ATo 118 times. You've had it 304. I've got 14,800 hands in my 1/2 database. You probably have almost 40,000.

I would probably guess the statistics calculator dudes out there would say you aren't really within a stones throw of saying that this hand is profitable with any assurance, yet.

Using the list of Poker Room's EV page, here is the line for ATo:

AT 0.08 1,047,289

Thats hand/EV/# of hands. Compiled from every player in all the tables... so LAGs, TAGs, Rocks, Eagles, SLAGs, TPPs.. all of them in one big bunch show an EV of 0.08 from that hand.

I think I play better than most of them.

I also think I'm going to get sick of saying 'it depends', too. Of course it depends on who you're playing against, but I think we can assume that the default player at Micros is loose, fairly passive, and not very tricky, and against those guys ATo is certainly playable, even from EP.

IMO.

KO