Beating the Party 10+1, Part 2

[AleoMagus]

How small an ace would you push with?

Perhaps I could just say A7+ and leave it at that? (that's probably all I want personally)

Bigger yet? A9+?

How big would you want a king to be in order to push in these situations?

Regards
Brad S

[NotMitch]

Depends on the size of my stack and how likely I am to get called really (yeah I know like that helped). I need to do some thinking on the specifics but I will post my thoughts on it later, but if I am short enough to push with any ace I will push with any king as well. But for the guide I think A7+ is fine and feels about right.

[AleoMagus]

It's funny you know. The more I look at this guide, the more I loathe the whole concept of a 'guide' to playing poker

I know that it helps many players, but the answer you just gave:

[ QUOTE ]
Depends on the size of my stack and how likely I am to get called really

[/ QUOTE ]

is just too true in too many instances.

Still, I guess we are really only talking about Party 10+1 here so an algorithim for winning play is entirely possible.

Regards
Brad S

[NotMitch]

[ QUOTE ]
It's funny you know. The more I look at this guide, the more I loathe the whole concept of a 'guide' to playing poker

I know that it helps many players, but the answer you just gave:

[ QUOTE ]
Depends on the size of my stack and how likely I am to get called really

[/ QUOTE ]

is just too true in too many instances.

Still, I guess we are really only talking about Party 10+1 here so an algorithim for winning play is entirely possible.

Regards
Brad S

[/ QUOTE ]


Brad,

Agree 100%. Poker is a game of situations and the outline provided will give a new player a great start towards being a winning player. But when it comes down to short handed play in a SnG it becomes more art than science, and the only way a new player is going to get comfortable in these situations is by playing them over and over.

Regarding the weak aces and pushing here is the reason Im more willing to push with kings sometimes. One of the things that can happen is that the opponent will fold so it doesnt matter what you have so lets ignore that. But when the opponent calls what does he have most of the time? Almost always from what I have seen an ace or a pair.

If he has a pair and you have overcards you are likely to be a small dog so there is really no difference if you hodl Ax or Kx.

If you both have an acesomeone is dominted and the smaller the ace is a huge dog. When pushing with a king you are unlikely to be dominated which means you are likely in a coinflip against hands that will call. The downside of course of pushing with a king is you are unlikely to be called by a hand that is dominated, so you do lose a little there.


Im not saying that Kx is better that Ax but given the range of hands you are likely to be called by a lot of times you are better off with a king. And FWIW I think I would like my kicker to be at least an 8 to get some protection from small pairs that will call. Hope this didn't ramble too much.

[willie838]

tried this out yesterday, 3 tourneys, 6th, 4th, and second were my results. don't really blame the guide for them though.

the 6th place was bad luck, i was gettin lowstacked from sittin tight until the end, hole cards are 99 so i go all in from early, BB calls with AA.

4th place was an idiotic play by me which i deserved to lose on. free play from BB, flop top pair 8 with jack kicker. lose to a set.

2nd place, eh i shoulda took down first but i took a tough one headsup. hole cards AK. guy raised into me, i go all in. he calls Q7. i'm ahead on the flop kings vs queens, but he hits runner 7s to bust me with a boat.



i'm gonna keep tryin to use this because it did seem pretty effective, but i'll mix in some of my own play (hopefully smarter than my 4th place finish f up). seems pretty good so far.

[fishhead]

What are everyone's thoughts about Axs? In a passive game, I limp with Axs almost all of the time, but maybe this is a big leak for me. The problem is that I limp with Axs, flop four to a flush and end up folding to an all-in raise. Is this too tight weak or should I not even limp with Axs in passive games?

(For background, I play in home SNGs with $60 buyins and blind structures fairly similar to Party.)

Any help on this would be great. Thanks!

[AleoMagus]

Personally, I will never play Axs anywhere at any stage less than the final 3.

It just doesn't make any sense to in my opinion. Not with Party's structure anyways

It's 30-1 against making your flush (and chasing a paired ace is just gonna hurt you). At almost no stage is anyone's stack much more than 30x the BB so even if you do manage to bust someone, you are not getting very good return for you risk.

The worst thing that can happen is that you catch a flush draw because you are still 2-1 against making it, and you are bound to flush a lot of money down the drain with a nut flush draw. They look so promising, but they are really not.

If you absolutely can't let go of Axs, try to at least play it in the last 2 or 3 positions. Then you can probably at least outplay your opponents with it on the flop (free cards, semi bluffs, checked aces tell you that you might have the only ace, etc...)

Me, I'm just not playing them (...maybe A9s on the button...And A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] of course [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] which I seem to have no willpower to let go of)

Regards
Brad S

[mackthefork]

[ QUOTE ]
It's 30-1 against making your flush (and chasing a paired ace is just gonna hurt you). At almost no stage is anyone's stack much more than 30x the BB so even if you do manage to bust someone, you are not getting very good return for you risk.

[/ QUOTE ]

You must mean on the flop, the odds of making a flush by the river are 10-1.


[ QUOTE ]
The worst thing that can happen is that you catch a flush draw because you are still 2-1 against making it, and you are bound to flush a lot of money down the drain with a nut flush draw. They look so promising, but they are really not.

[/ QUOTE ]

I will have to respectfully agree to disagree, to me it depends on how many people are in the pot with you, if it's early on and you have 4 or 5 to the flop, you can stick 100 or so in, and easily get 2 callers (depending on the board). The players I've seen are only to happy to give their stacks away with a worse flush or top pair even.

Regards ML

[AleoMagus]

Yeah, 30-1 is off, but I think we are both wrong about the odds

If you are dealt and two suited cards, the odds of: flopping a flush is 118-1
Flopping a four flush is 8.14-1

If you flop a 4 flush, the odds of completing that flush by the river are 1.86-1

this means that from preflop to river your chances of turning Axs into a flush are about 15-1 against.

A lot better than my first statement, but still not good in my opinion. I know a lot of people play draws like these and I know some even do it profitably, but I think it takes good judgement and you need big multi-way pots and position to make it worthwhile.

Regards
Brad S

[ddubois]

I read this thread before last week, remembered the advice therein, but did the dirty deed anyways. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

With an above average stack around level 4ish, 5-handed, I had A5s on the button, tried for a steal 3xBB, got called, flopped K44 two of my suit, semi-bluffed ~1/3rd of the pot, got raised ~2/3rd of the pot, called, picked up the gutshot with an offsuit 2 on the turn, I check, he pushed. I thought for a long time, figured he had a K, and hoped my 3, A, and suit outs were good. I don't think I really had the pot odds to call, but with so much in the pot I felt committed; it's either hit and go on to easily win money with a massive stack, or be short-stacked and playing aggressively with the worst of it. So I called and of course I missed. Turns out he called my preflop steal with A4s and hit trips. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

I did manage to double up twice with lucky desparation pushses and actually had a playable amount of chips, but stupidly maintained needless desparation-level aggression (tilt from the A5s mistake), and pushed on the button with KT. I ran into an ace and I was out.

Morale of the story: Don't let yourself get committed with draws. On the flop, consider the reverse-implied-odds of the turn call you'll have to make if you want to see the river!