where theres ink theres squid

[stripsqueez]

paradise 5 max 10/20 - i love this game

button open limps and i complete with K8o - BB checks

flop is Kh 9s 7s - i bet - BB folds and the button raises - i call - the button is your garden variety passive chook

turn is 7c - check/check

river is 8s - check/bet ??

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[MAxx]

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garden variety passive chook


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does this mean he doesnt raise for free turn cards?

[stripsqueez]

[ QUOTE ]
does this mean he doesnt raise for free turn cards?

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well he open limped on the button - he has probably read a book that told him that you can buy free cards by raising the flop with position when you have a draw

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[MAxx]

given the way the hand went down pf, flop, and turn... vs. a passive chook, who isnt too passive to raise a flopped spade draw-

I think the correct river play would be a bet/fold here, as painful as it would be.

I sometimes 3bet the flop, or stop n go turn... but I could have gone the same route vs someone that I generally viewed as passive.

I say bet fold river, because he likely has either 1) a flush (or better) or 2) a worse 2 pair combination. You don't gain much by checking river, as he probably doesnt bet many hands that you beat. Then again he may lead river with worse as you have checked both flop and river. I still think I like the bet fold better... but I admit i did start considering a river c/r fold to a 3-bet [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Kasumeat]

Wouldn't he play a 9 or K this way?

[chezlaw]

Unless so passive that flop raise means TP decent kicker or better (which is rare) then hows about

3-bet flop, bet turn

chez

[stripsqueez]

[ QUOTE ]
Unless so passive that flop raise means TP decent kicker or better (which is rare) then hows about

3-bet flop, bet turn

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i regret that i used the word passive - your garden variety chook would often wait to raise me on the turn if they had a king - or perhaps simply call me down

i think the first part of this hand that troubles me is that mr more should of gotten a run on the flop and i should of then bet the turn

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

ps - its nearly the time that your going to attract a lot of ridicule with that avatar chezlaw - in fact your already looking silly displaying a sporting trophy held by a country that is not your own for more than a decade

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
given the way the hand went down pf, flop, and turn... vs. a passive chook, who isnt too passive to raise a flopped spade draw-

I think the correct river play would be a bet/fold here, as painful as it would be.

I sometimes 3bet the flop, or stop n go turn... but I could have gone the same route vs someone that I generally viewed as passive.

I say bet fold river, because he likely has either 1) a flush (or better) or 2) a worse 2 pair combination. You don't gain much by checking river, as he probably doesnt bet many hands that you beat. Then again he may lead river with worse as you have checked both flop and river. I still think I like the bet fold better... but I admit i did start considering a river c/r fold to a 3-bet [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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couldn't agree more. remember also he'll pretty much never bluff raise here, or even raise a marginal hand (which you beat) that he thinks is for value.

edit - as an aside, i think i'd just 3bet the flop.

[stripsqueez]

so far in this thread i'm assuming that i'm having a perception problem - i was thinking maybe i did before i posted but just to be sure...

sometimes when i play i play too quickly - this hand i hit the call button after the flop raise too quickly - like i said earlier this sort of player wont have a hand that beats me often - i struggle to define what sort of player this was - not because he was unusual - he was thoroughly common - rather than "passive" or something more pleasing to my vocabulary lets call him "average"

an average player likes to raise the turn when they have a serious hand - what they see is that they hold a big hand - thier thoughts then turn to how best to punish the other guys they are playing with and win a heap of money - the easiest answer to see is to wait till the bets get bigger then spring the trap so thats the answer they see - this is more so because i'm an animal when i play 5 max - to the extent that this bloke is thinking about what i'm going to do its "i'm going to punish that guy that bets all the time"

when an average player flops a big draw they normally feel obliged to do something - the something they usually choose to do is what mainstream theory calls semi bluff - most average players have heard of semi bluffing - if they have a draw they should bet and raise with it - sometimes thier draw comes home and they vividly remember the big pots they win when that happens - sometimes everybody folds at a point where they had nothing and that feels good too

so this average player raised a cheap street and then checked the blank that hit on the expensive street - like the title says where there is ink there is squid - an average player cant see whats coming in a hand and cant see that thier actions may later have consequences - its the experts that base decisions on whats happening in the future - so the average player doesnt see that what they have done before leads to conclusions thier opponent can draw later - in more mainstream language the observation is that poor players dont think about what thier opponents are thinking about

so there i am when the river hits on this hand trying to recover from annoyance that i didnt 3 bet the flop and contemplating the actions of yet another average player - it occurs to me that not 3 betting flop and betting the turn has at least given me the opportunity to confirm the presence of ink - i remind myself that at any given point it is normally best to assume you have a played a hand the best way it can be played

before i do something on the river i'm going to have the full plan - its the end game - i'm not going to check without knowing whether i'm going to call a bet and i'm not going to bet until i know if i'm going to fold or 3 bet a raise

i could look at the size of the pot and contemplate the approxiamate percentage of times my opponent might have a range of hands and do some math and in that way come to a conclusion - that method normally works ok - alternatively i can decide what hes got and act accordingly

so my question is - if i decide to check/fold the river do i need special mind powers ?

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[MAxx]

[ QUOTE ]
Wouldn't he play a 9 or K this way?

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That would qualify as a worse 2pair combination...considering that the board is paired... unless he has a K9. Anything better is not a two pair combination.