AA hands in SS PL08

xorbie · #1 05-12-2005, 10:42 PM

I tend to overplay AA in these games, but am I correct that getting all in PF with strong AA hands is almost always good (especially at these low stakes)? For example:

Party Poker (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

Roodiculi calls [$0.25], 2 folds., PoppaHansen calls [$0.25], keb444 calls [$0.25], 1 folds., johnny2000 calls [$0.25], xorbie raises [$1.65], cindey_lou calls [$1.5], Roodiculi calls [$1.5], 1 folds., keb444 raises [$9], 1 folds., xorbie is all-In [$23], cindey_lou is all-In [$7.82], 1 folds, keb444 calls [$15.5].

Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)

Turn: K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)

River: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)

Final Pot:

The original PF raise is good right? What if I didn't have the 4 (say it's a 9 but still DS)? What if I have the 4 but it's only suited one way? What about if I have a 4 but it's not suited at all?

gergery · #2 05-13-2005, 07:24 AM

yes.

and totally unrelated, btw, dwraiders is my special friend. I really love him.

Ironman · #3 05-13-2005, 09:00 AM

Xorbie,

You have the right idea as far as I'm concerned. You have a very strong hand and the fact that you got the money in preflop is a very good sign.

In this particular case, you've hit the cards you need and only have to dodge a few cards to avoid the boat. This is better heads up obviously.

Change the 4 to a 9 and I don't get quite so excited about it because you don't have a two way hand.

Change from double suited to single suited and I still raise.

Not sure how to handle the hand if it becomes AA9x unsuited as this drops off significantly.

Probably more of a positional situation then with the AA and no help preflop when deciding to raise or not.

Good luck.

Dave

Buzz · #4 05-13-2005, 09:09 AM

Xorbie - I play mostly limit poker, so take my response with a grain of salt.

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am I correct that getting all in PF with strong AA hands is almost always good

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Raising before the flop with a premium hand and getting your opponents to invest when you have the best hand makes some sense if that's the only way you can get them to invest in the pot. But what's the point in running out of money yourself before the hand is complete?

I just don't get it.

I want to have some chips to bet if I hit my draw. I don't want to be all-in watching the action with my winning hand. It's true that when you don't have a winning hand, if you have no chips left there's no more risk. But don't you just fold when you don't have a winning hand?

I realize that you can't always tell for certain when you have the winning hand, but isn't the essence of the game reading your opponents and playing accordingly? What does getting all your money into the pot before the flop have to do with reading your opponents and playing good poker?

Sometimes I call a bet when all I can beat is a bluff. I suppose you're saved from that if you get all your money in the pot early.

But you can't bluff yourself if you don't have any chips. And you can't collect when you make your draw if you don't have any chips.

I guess you don't have to play good poker if you manage to get all your money into the pot before the flop. Maybe that's the idea.

Otherwise I don't get it. Why would anyone want to get all their money in the pot before the flop so that they have no chance to make another intelligent decision based on the cards on the flop, turn, and river, and their opponent's reactions to those cards - so that they have no chance to play good poker?

But sure, 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] is a great starting hand - a premium starting hand. Chances are you have the best starting hand at the table. It's probably the best starting hand you'll see for the next three or four hours - that's how good it is.

Even so, it may be worthless after the flop (or turn, or river). And then you want to either bluff with it or get away from it - and if you choose to get away from it, you want to do so as cheaply as possible.

I can understand betting the heck out of the hand before the flop, if that's the only time you're able to collect from your opponents - but with a fine starting hand like that don't you still want to have something left to bet with after the flop?

In this particular case, you got a favorable flop and turn... and then had nothing left to bet.

The fault was not in betting your premium hand. It was in not having enough chips in front of you to bet the hand to the hilt before the flop and still be able to bet on later betting rounds.

So it seems to me your thinking is wrong. It must be right to get as much of your opponent's money into the pot as possible with that fine starting hand. However it must be wrong to run out of money when you have the winning hand.

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The original PF raise is good right?

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I'd say so. You got your opponents to invest when you probably had the best chance of success.

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What if I didn't have the 4 (say it's a 9 but still DS)?

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Then it's not a premium hand anymore. But it's still probably the best starting hand for this particular deal, and probably the best starting hand you'll get dealt in this round of the table.

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What if I have the 4 but it's only suited one way?

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With only one nut flush draw, you obviously cut your overall chances to win with a flush in half. Your hand still has other chances to win, as with a full house, for example. And you still have the other nut flush draw. But your hand strength is weakened. Now it's probably only the best starting hand you'll get dealt for the next hour.

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What about if I have a 4 but it's not suited at all?

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So now you have AA4Kn? Well... that's similar to having AA9Kd. You probably still have the best starting hand at the table, and it's probably the best hand you'll get dealt in this round of the table - but it's not a premium hand. You basically have fewer ways to find a fit with the flop and then fewer ways to end up with a winner.

Just my opinion. I'm usually sorry when I offer it in pot-limit threads, but maybe I'll learn something useful this time.

Buzz

Wintermute · #5 05-13-2005, 11:37 AM

Xorbie & Buzz,

This play looks optimal to me. With an AA that's as strong as this one, it's correct IMO to raise from the SB (because you have low possibility and two suits). In this case, you would ideally like to get all in against one or perhaps two other stacks before the flop. Getting reraised is either a mistake by your opponent, or you both have AAxx's, which is also OK.
Buzz, the reason why I don't like to call here to save chips for later streets is that you *know* you have the advantage here, and you must give your opponents the opoprtunity to make the mistake of calling (or better yet, reraising!).
Suppose you don't raise--then you will frequently face troubling flops that give you little idea of where you stand later. In this case, for example, on that flop you have absolutely no idea where you stand if you just call and let several (4,5, etc) limpers see the flop. Almost certainly one of them has a J, so you either have to hope for the third club that misses their full house draw, or one of the two remaining aces, which are very likely sitting in others' hands.

My general rule of thumb is, when you are dealt AAxx:

in EP (not blinds): limp & reraise if possible
in MP: limp & reraise if possible, OR if raised to you, reraise right away
in LP: raise if not raised yet, reraise if already raised

SB/BB: MUCH more tricky. Any time it's raised, reraise. Lots of limpers, "good" AAxx, raise. Lots of limpers, "bad" AA (AsAcQd9h) complete/check. Few limpers, complete/check.

JoshuaMayes · #6 05-13-2005, 12:33 PM

Wintermute, I agree with your main point and most of what you wrote, but I have a few points of disagreement.

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Getting reraised is either a mistake by your opponent, or you both have AAxx's, which is also OK.

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If you only reraise with AAxx, your opponent knows 50% of your hand everytime you reraise, which is bad. I also don't believe it is a mistake to reraise hands like AKK2, AQQ2, AKK3s, etc, because a big raise often indicates a hand like A23X or A2s, not just AA. A big raise sometimes even represents a high only hand like QQJJ or any A2 when it comes from a bad player.

[ QUOTE ]

My general rule of thumb is, when you are dealt AAxx:

in EP (not blinds): limp & reraise if possible
in MP: limp & reraise if possible, OR if raised to you, reraise right away
in LP: raise if not raised yet, reraise if already raised

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The hands I play the way you described are AA with a wheel card, and A2XX, A3XXs when XX is a pair >TT.

I play AAxx without a wheel card like a weak, speculative hand -- I fold it from EP unless the XX are strong (e.g. JJ, JTds, KQs), limp in MP if the XX have a little something going for them (i.e. one suited ace, connected XX etc.), and limp from LP with any AAxx. I do not want to put alot of my stack on the line with a trash hand like AA96os. I fold most trashy AAXX hands to a raise. Even though these hand may be a favorite before the flop, they are very difficult to play after the flop. You will often have to let your aces go when they are the best hand on the flop.

My style of playing AAXX has a couple benefits. First, I don't lose much when I catch nothing on the flop, which happens most of the time. More importantly, I get paid off when I hit a set of aces or aces full, because no one expects me to limp in with Aces.