Too aggressive from BB?

Crveballin · #1 01-19-2005, 01:25 PM

How did I play the OESD and Flush draw? Was I too aggressive with just draws?

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button calls, SB folds, Hero checks.

Flop: (5.50 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Button bets, Hero raises, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, Button calls.

Turn: (5.75 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, MP2 raises, Button calls, Hero calls.

River: (11.75 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Button calls, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 13.75 BB

Aaron W. · #2 01-19-2005, 01:27 PM

What was the flop check-raise all about?

TwoShedsJackson · #3 01-19-2005, 01:31 PM

I call the flop, it's a small pot, you're drawing to a flush and you only have one overcard (with no kicker) which if it comes will put three to a straight on board.

I check call the turn, pot's still small and a bet is very unlikely to fold both players, one of whom probably has a Q or two pair by now.

Crveballin · #4 01-19-2005, 01:34 PM

I figured with the backdoor straight draw and flush draw I could eliminate some other drawing hands. Not sure if that was the correct play.

TwoShedsJackson · #5 01-19-2005, 01:46 PM

It's not - a backdoor straight draw where you're using only one card in your hand isn't even worth an out and you don't mind leaving people in to draw to a straight when you're drawing to a flush.

Anyone with two clubs one of which is the Ace, King, or Queen isn't folding so a raise leaves you putting in more money on the occasions where you miss.

You might get a tight player to fold the Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] but that would be rare on Party.

easypete · #6 01-19-2005, 01:55 PM

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I figured with the backdoor straight draw and flush draw I could eliminate some other drawing hands. Not sure if that was the correct play.

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Very flawed...

First of all, there are 4 opponents on the flop. Why in the world do you want to force 3 opponents to call 2 cold on the flop. You are drawing..... Let me repeat that.... YOU ARE DRAWING. This is important... Let's not overlook this.

Next... there was on pfr... so why are you checking this in the first place. You have 9 outs for the flush, you have just less than 1 out for the backdoor straight draw. With 2 cards to come and roughly 10 outs, you will be good 62% of the time here (barring someone drawing to a higher flush or straight. More than likely, you are 50% or higher to win this hand... you only need one opponent in the pot to make capping correct, and yes... you want to see this flop capped.

Since nobody raised pf, you must bet this flop. It is just a tragedy not to bet here.

If somebody did raise pf... figure out the best way (by either bet/raising, bet/calling, check/calling, check/raising) to get the most # of bets into the pot on this flop. C/R to eliminate players is just a good way to throw away money.

easypete · #7 01-19-2005, 02:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It's not - a backdoor straight draw where you're using only one card in your hand isn't even worth an out and you don't mind leaving people in to draw to a straight when you're drawing to a flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah... if you hit runner runner cards to create a straight... it's still a backdoor draw.... It's not to the nuts and it would be a 1 card straight, so you will split a lot. You have a good point. This is minor to the flush draw tho.

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone with two clubs one of which is the Ace, King, or Queen isn't folding so a raise leaves you putting in more money on the occasions where you miss.

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If, for some reason, I'm in this pot (from BB or whatever) with the 2 lowest clubs in this hand, I'm going to cap it on the flop. In the long run, it will pay off. Yes, you may run into a higher flush (it happens), but not capping this flop will cost you with this many players seeing this flop.

Crveballin · #8 01-19-2005, 02:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ] Next... there was on pfr... so why are you checking this in the first place. You have 9 outs for the flush, you have just less than 1 out for the backdoor straight draw. With 2 cards to come and roughly 10 outs, you will be good 62% of the time here (barring someone drawing to a higher flush or straight. More than likely, you are 50% or higher to win this hand... you only need one opponent in the pot to make capping correct, and yes... you want to see this flop capped.

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If the flop does get capped do you slow down on turn and then check fold the river if the card does not fall? Also, do you think a straight bet here would get more $$$ into the pot versus the check raise?

Aaron W. · #9 01-19-2005, 08:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Next... there was on pfr... so why are you checking this in the first place. You have 9 outs for the flush, you have just less than 1 out for the backdoor straight draw. With 2 cards to come and roughly 10 outs, you will be good 62% of the time here (barring someone drawing to a higher flush or straight. More than likely, you are 50% or higher to win this hand... you only need one opponent in the pot to make capping correct, and yes... you want to see this flop capped.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where is this 62% number coming from?

SoCalPat · #10 01-19-2005, 09:16 PM

If you're intent on building a pot on the flop, bet it, don't C/R it. Making the field call two cold here is silly. You want them to stick around.

If your draw was bigger (flush draw to the nuts plus an OESD or with two overcards, etc.), I would bet the flop and make it 3 if raised. But your draw isn't that big here, and you can't guarantee yourself a win if a J hits because you have kicker issues. I would bet the flop and merely call a raise.

Check/call the turn, and obviously, check/fold the river unimproved.

There are monster draws and there are marginal draws. This one falls much closer to the latter than the former.