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#21
11-21-2005, 01:00 PM
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Re: Dodging a check-raise?
[ QUOTE ]
"Every time you play a hand differently from the way you would have played it if you could see all your opponents cards they gain; and every time you play your hand the same way you would have played it if you could see or their cards they lose." There is more but that is the relevant bit. Therefore if I knew he had a queen then checking is correct as I only have 2 outs. [/ QUOTE ] Well if you want to bring the FTOP into the conversation then you shouldve checked on the flop. So while your play on the turn may have been correct, your flop play was incorrect - with regards to the FTOP of course. However I agree with your check on the turn as even as I was reading the hand I got the tingling check raise sensation. Btspider analysis was good from a math standpoint but I firmly believe that occasionally instincts overrule math. 
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#22
11-21-2005, 01:04 PM
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Re: Dodging a check-raise?
This is not a WA/WB situation as any A or K or heart may result in a better hand for your opponents
Non of them seem overlly aggressive, so i would probably bet and fold to a raise... what if a blank hits and it is checked to you on the river? L
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#23
11-21-2005, 01:06 PM
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Re: Dodging a check-raise?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] "Every time you play a hand differently from the way you would have played it if you could see all your opponents cards they gain; and every time you play your hand the same way you would have played it if you could see or their cards they lose." There is more but that is the relevant bit. Therefore if I knew he had a queen then checking is correct as I only have 2 outs. [/ QUOTE ] Well if you want to bring the FTOP into the conversation then you shouldve checked on the flop. So while your play on the turn may have been correct, your flop play was incorrect - with regards to the FTOP of course. However I agree with your check on the turn as even as I was reading the hand I got the tingling check raise sensation. Btspider analysis was good from a math standpoint but I firmly believe that occasionally instincts overrule math. [/ QUOTE ] This was perhaps the sub-conscious reason for the post. Can we ever make an "instictive" play. I am a math guy as most aspiring limit players are but just now and again can we listen to that little voice?
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#24
11-21-2005, 01:14 PM
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Re: Dodging a check-raise?
This turn is terrible - really gross
Bet this shizzat This was a nice results-oriented hand you posted though....
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#25
11-21-2005, 01:21 PM
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Re: Dodging a check-raise?
No, you really can't, because your brain tricks you. It inherently remembers those rare opportunities where the mathematically correct move would have resulted (or did result) in a less desirable result than what your intuition did (or would have). It conveniently forgets the times when the mathematically correct thing was correct, however, because these events are more common and less interesting. We make whellbarrow loads full of money from people who "feel their A coming" and hit it because of how often they don't hit it in spite of their feeling, and then forget how often that happens.
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#26
11-21-2005, 01:22 PM
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Re: Dodging a check-raise?
[ QUOTE ]
However I agree with your check on the turn as even as I was reading the hand I got the tingling check raise sensation. Btspider analysis was good from a math standpoint but I firmly believe that occasionally instincts overrule math. [/ QUOTE ] instincts occasionally help you make a decision. but not when your opponents have *only* checked and called to this point.
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#27
11-21-2005, 01:26 PM
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Re: Dodging a check-raise?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] However I agree with your check on the turn as even as I was reading the hand I got the tingling check raise sensation. Btspider analysis was good from a math standpoint but I firmly believe that occasionally instincts overrule math. [/ QUOTE ] instincts occasionally help you make a decision. but not when your opponents have *only* checked and called to this point. [/ QUOTE ] And not in the internet. I could see making this play live when you have a read, though.
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#28
11-21-2005, 01:29 PM
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Re: Dodging a check-raise?
Turn check is bad. Don't play your feelings, play the math. As for FTOP, it really is irrelevant here and is hurting this dialogue more than it's helping. Technically, yes, by FTOP, the turn check was the "right" play, given that we know villain's cards. Since we don't at the time, a turn bet is ultimately correct. This turn should be a bet 100/100 times, not 95. btspider was on the money
The replies towards the end of this thread saying that just reading this they had a feeling you would be check/raised are reinforcing bad ideas. When you have been a professional poker player making hundreds of thousands of dollars, then I invite you to play by feel. Until then, stick with the mathematically sound strategies (ie bet the turn).
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#29
11-21-2005, 01:31 PM
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Re: Dodging a check-raise?
I think we should still bet this.
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#30
11-21-2005, 01:41 PM
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Re: Dodging a check-raise?
[ QUOTE ]
This was perhaps the sub-conscious reason for the post. Can we ever make an "instictive" play. I am a math guy as most aspiring limit players are but just now and again can we listen to that little voice? [/ QUOTE ] On these boards - NO! Because a feeling cant be quantitized or proved in a hand history. You can say you had a feeling, but you also know the outcome of the hand and therefore your feeling is justified or forgotten depending on the outcome. Its psychology at its finest. You feel you are behind in the hand, but you continue to play and in the end you were right. Your brain makes a mental note of this and then tries to warn you off the next time you get that feeling. So what happens in situations where your feeling was wrong? You probably forget about it, your brain has nothing to protect you from becuase you won. Even on this hand, you justify your turn play as good becuase of FTOP, but say nothing about your flop play in regards to the FTOP. Given your defined rules of determining good vs bad play - you have congratulated yourself for your 'good' turn play and ignored your 'bad' flop play. Thats why on these boards we use math and reads to make plays. And thats why when you make a play based soley on a feeling your play on these boards, right or wrong, your feeling will always get scoffed. However when you are in the middle of game, instinct goes along way. Buts its really not instinct. Its instinct modified. You have an inate poker sense, you have a read on the table, you have a read on the players, you have a general feeling of the hand, etc.. So all of this comes together as an instinctive play and sometimes even though the absolute math doesnt justify it, you make the play based upon this. You may be right, may be wrong, you just cant tell us it was instinct, becuase that word, and similar words, get treated as bad words here.
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