I bet everyone will be focused on PF...

Rev. Good Will · #1 08-29-2005, 11:29 AM

Paradise Poker 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

table is a loose/passive wet dream.

except UTG, who after 40 hands is a 90/30/1.26 (not a typo)
overplayed many hands, such as raising/capping TP on a QJ5 flop with an 8 for a kicker (no FD)

and I guess UTG+1, who is in his first orbit

Preflop: Hero is CO with 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (9 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (9 players)
SB folds, BB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, Hero raises, Button folds, BB folds, UTG 3-bets, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero caps, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (14.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP3 folds, Hero calls.

River: (18.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG bets, UTG+1 raises, UTG+2 calls, Hero folds...

is a river fold here too weak? I didn't like UTG+1 waking up like that

#2 08-29-2005, 11:33 AM

I see no reason not to raise the turn, you should have no fear that UTG has a better hand then you. The river does not complete any obvious draws, so maybe UTG+1 has j10 that he slowplayed on the turn or some other monster, I still think you have to call, pot is too huge.

#3 08-29-2005, 11:42 AM

I think you should have raised the turn as well.

That river situation is nasty. UTG+1 is probably some goof who stayed in till the river with pocket 2's, and if you call the 2 bets, UTG may likely raise. You're sandwiched inbetween two likely raisers, I don't like it at all.

[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I don't know what I do here. I don't like either option, the hand feels too strong to fold, but not strong enough to call what may turn into 4 big bets.

GrunchCan · #4 08-29-2005, 12:09 PM

I'm fine with PF. There are so many limpers ahead of you that I don't think trying to make a medium flush is -EV here. I don't think you lose anything by folding, but I don't think you lose anything by limping either.

I'd probably wait to rasie until the turn when your equity will either go way up or way down. Raising the flop does not protect, and while it might be for value now, lots of turn cards could make your flop rasie -value. Wait for the turn, then raise any safe card.

I'm not folding that river, but since I don't want UTG+1 to 3-bet, I'm not raising either. Call the 2.

deception5 · #5 08-29-2005, 12:19 PM

I don't see a problem with the limp, this to me is a good sign that you are looking for profitable situations to play rather than focusing on a chart.

I would raise this turn. There are a lot of cards that are going to kill your hand on the river including any spade, K/9/J/T. You have position and there's a good chance you have the best hand right now. Depending on the reactions of your opponents you can safely call a reraise (with your 4 likely outs) and fold the river unimproved if it's 2 bets to you (and probably call 1).

This would also make the river action more straightforward because here your hand is underrepresented (the turn call makes your hand look like a draw).

MrWookie47 · #6 08-29-2005, 12:23 PM

I don't have much of a problem with preflop. I very nearly limped the exact same hand yesterday when it was two posters and a limper to me on the button.

I'm not convinced, though, by Grunch's argument about waiting for the turn in this case. Sure, a flush card is sad times, but it doesn't completely ruin your day. You have a redraw to the boat. A K makes you puke, yes, but there are only 3 (at best) of those left in the deck. An A doesn't necessarily ruin your day, because AK and AQ extremely unlikely hands, and A7 isn't all that probable, either. The only hands you really need to be worried about currently are K7 and an unlikely 77.

I'm seeing a whole lot of people trapped for extra bets on the flop, and, while I see that there are turn cards that are bad for hero, I don't think there are nearly enough to warrant passing up on a ridiculous amount of value here.

I'm cold calling instead of folding that river. The pot is just too big, and your hand is too strong.

GrunchCan · #7 08-29-2005, 12:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I very nearly limped the exact same hand yesterday when it was two posters and a limper to me on the button.

[/ QUOTE ]

Without knowing your actual hand, I can't think of many hands you shouldn't PFR with if you're entering that pot.

imported_The Vibesman · #8 08-29-2005, 12:27 PM

I hate it too, but I think you need to call here for the size of the pot.

Twitch1977 · #9 08-29-2005, 12:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm fine with PF. There are so many limpers ahead of you that I don't think trying to make a medium flush is -EV here. I don't think you lose anything by folding, but I don't think you lose anything by limping either.

I'd probably wait to rasie until the turn when your equity will either go way up or way down. Raising the flop does not protect, and while it might be for value now, lots of turn cards could make your flop rasie -value. Wait for the turn, then raise any safe card.

I'm not folding that river, but since I don't want UTG+1 to 3-bet, I'm not raising either. Call the 2.

[/ QUOTE ]

Could you elaborate a bit on your suggestion of waiting to the turn to raise?

What I'm confused about is this:

'Raising the flop does not protect, and while it might be for value now, lots of turn cards could make your flop rasie -value.'

If raising the flop is for value (equity advantage) how is it the turn card can directly affect the equity on the flop? By raising on the flop 'for value' you do so with the understanding that sometimes the turn or river is going to screw ya over but in the long term you'll come out ahead.

With at least 5 players in this pot on the flop and you sitting with two pair I can't see how raising the flop cannot be for value.

You also suggest that you should wait until the turn to raise to protect your hand but with the way the tag alongs are trapped between you and the UTG that's betting I don't see how that's going to work either, even if you don't raise the flop on the turn they'll be getting between 7-8:1 pot odds which won't fold any of the stronger draws.

Anyways I don't mean presume you're wrong I'm just not understanding at this point.

Thanks
T

johnc · #10 08-29-2005, 12:32 PM

PF: I don't see this as a neccessarily a bad call esp in CO position.

Flop: I like the cap. I see you as way ahead at this point as KK & QQ not likely (not raised pf) and you hold the Q7 so a set of sevens (or queens for that matter) are very unlikely. You got to push your equity here esp with the flush draw on board.

Turn: I'd put in a raise here, for value ( I still think you're ahead right now) and to charge any idiots to spike their set with a pp or a hit their kicker (with the king - most likely threat right now, IMO). Although the flush draw will be getting odds to draw a raise might still make them fold.

River: I can't fold here. Pot's too big and you have a chance (although the UTG+1's bet doesn't look good). Call.