KTo against a crackhead

Rev. Good Will · #1 08-22-2005, 12:55 AM

Paradise Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter
super LAG is very aggro, PFR of 30+, and overplays many hands postflop.

LP-P is a garden variety LP-P, and is pretty loose, nothing special about his play.

Preflop: Hero is CO with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. MP1 posts a blind of $0.50.
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 (poster) checks, 2 folds, Hero calls, 1 fold, SB :#A500AF(LP-P)/ completes, BB :#A500AF(super LAG)/ raises, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, Hero calls, SB :#A500AF(LP-P)/ calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
LP-P checks, super LAG bets, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls, LP-P calls.

call, going to raise a turn non-(EDIT - J/A/7/Q...not really 9)

Turn: (6.50 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
LP-P bets, super LAG raises, UTG+2 calls, Hero 3-bets, LP-P calls, super LAG caps, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls, LP-P calls.

River: (22.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
LP-P checks, super LAG bets, UTG+2 folds, Hero calls, LP-P folds.

Final Pot: 24.50 BB

Paxosmotic · #2 08-22-2005, 12:59 AM

Raise flop. LAG's not slowing down and LP-P's not going anywhere if he's got a piece. Nasty river tied your hands it looks like, or that's another raise for value.

aK13 · #3 08-22-2005, 12:59 AM

Raise the flop. I can stick in another raise on teh river.

EDIT: NM, river raise = bad.

Paxosmotic · #4 08-22-2005, 01:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Raise the flop. I can stick in another raise on teh river.

EDIT: NM, river raise = bad.

[/ QUOTE ]
For re--

See you went and edited your post on me, now we agree and have nothing to discuss. Anyway, how're the kids? Good? Good. Moving on.

Dave G. · #5 08-22-2005, 01:03 AM

Raise preflop, I don't like this limp with only two people in so far. If you're lucky, BB will 3-bet and you get it HU. Cutting down the field is good, getting it HU with BB is super.

I would also raise the flop. Any J or Q isn't guaranteed to help your opponents, but it sets up a redraw if it does. The only card you really don't want to see is an A. Your raise faces LP with 5.5:1 odds if he's calling with a gutshot draw, odds which will further be reduced if BB 3-bets (which will then also screw UTG+2). You've got two players trapped so you should raise to either fold them or make them pay heavily with short odds.

SlantNGo · #6 08-22-2005, 01:04 AM

Why raise the flop? By my count, 16 cards (7, J, Q, A) are devastating to us. SuperLAG 3-betting only bloats the pot even more and may even give gutshots correct odds to call on the turn.

Paxosmotic · #7 08-22-2005, 01:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Why raise the flop? By my count, 16 cards (7, J, Q, A) are devastating to us. SuperLAG 3-betting only bloats the pot even more and may even give gutshots correct odds to call on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm raising purely for value, not to protect our hand. If we're heads up and are going to win 51% of the time, betting is correct whether our opponent has odds to chase or not. There is probably a lot of dead money in this pot from the LP-P player and the LAG, so while UTG+2 chasing a draw is profitable for him and taking slightly from our equity, we make up for it by the massive advantage we have over LPP and LAG.

SlantNGo · #8 08-22-2005, 01:14 AM

I dunno, I think waiting till the turn serves both purposes. If a turn blank comes, we still get value because SuperLAG will bet again. We also get hand protection, forcing 1 opponent to call 2 cold, and quite possibly forcing another opponent to call 1 then face another 2 cold after SuperLAG 3-bets.

If we raise the flop and SuperLAG 3-bets, do we cap? What do we do if 4 to a straight comes on the turn? I don't think our hand is quite as strong here as you do.

Dave G. · #9 08-22-2005, 01:24 AM

The A and 7 are bad cards. The J and Q are unpleasant, but not earth shattering. They're not guaranteed to hurt you, and if they do, they set up a river redraw for you.

If he 3-bets the pot will be bloated, and they may call more correctly later on for their gutshot, but that will never make up for the huge error they make if they call the flop getting such horrible odds (assuming they do).

Another problem with waiting here is if someone has a backdoor flush draw to go with whatever else they have. If you don't make them pay a premium on the flop and they improve to a flush draw on the turn, you've priced them in to chase any river. Now, they would not be making an error at any point during the hand, which costs you some EV and might cost you the pot if they'd fold to a flop raise.

UTG+1 can't like his position being sandwhiched between two raisers and facing two cold. He might fold lots of hands we don't want him hanging around to see the turn with. If he's at all a reasonable player, he'd fold a naked Q here. If the turn comes with a J or a Q, getting him out on the flop might save us the pot.

By waiting for the turn, we're letting everyone correctly draw against us, and basically offering up the pot to anyone who wants to call. It's important to protect on the flop as well as any other street. I don't think this is a good time to wait for the turn.

Rev. Good Will · #10 08-22-2005, 01:25 AM

I don't really raise with KTo PF aside from stealing/isolating, I don't think I'll get HU often enough to make it profitable either.

set up redraws? a J/Q/7 puts 4 to a straight on board