Paving over the Bellagio Fountains (long)

[Macedon]

If someone here is steeped in economic thinking, please help me refute this guy who made the claim that if you paved over the fountains at the Bellagio it would have no discernable effect on the Bellagio's bottom line.

The debate began with me complementing the Bellagio's water show. The responder (Paver Man) ripped into my enjoyment of a "wasteful" entertainment and made the point that the fountains didn't matter. Here's the debate:

[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Paver Man: "Glad you like the fountains. A lot of folks think of them as hideous, unmitigated ecological disasters, sucking up precious water in the midst of the world's most unrelenting desert while their lawns go brown and downriver wildlife suffers. And, why? So a bunch of "smartly dressed" effete bourgeois have a better background for their $14 drinks."

[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Me: "An ecological disaster? The "world's most unrelenting desert"? Me thinks that you hath drunk from the fountain of hyperbole.
A little perspective is needed here....
Surely a precious and dwindling natural resource should not be wasted for mere entertainment purposes; however, there is more to it than that. The fountains at Bellagio are a tourist attraction and like all tourist attractions it helps bring in big tourist dollars, which in turn helps sustain the local economy. One could argue that this one fountain [alone] has done more for propping up the local economy than any other fountain in America. I would say that is an acceptable use of a natural resource."

[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Paver Man: "The 'before and after' method of measuring value should apply here....
They could pave over the Bellagio fountains and the economics of the greater Vegas tourism market would demonstrate no measureable impact.
The value difference "before" (with fountains) and "after" (without fountains) is nominal...ergo, the fountains are of no real value to the whole. Even Bellagio would probably have a tough time showing a real, major loss of income.
But still they waste a precious resource."

[At this point, many posters tried (in vane, IMO) to refute this guy's post by offering that the fountains were key to the success of the Bellagio and the surrounding casinos]

[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Paver Man: [With sarcasm] "Don't they realize the fountains are everything? The success of Bellagio wasn't forged by quality of craftsmanship, excellent service, superior restaurants, priceless artwork and creativity...no, its from an overactive hose in the cement pond out front. Give me a break...its a classy amenity, makes for nice curb appeal, but its the people inside spending that matter, not pedestrians taking pictures on the street.
They could fill the fountains in, tastefully landscape the space and the net effect on the bottom line would be a brief hic-up and rapid returns to high profits. Or, they could put up another tower and make even more money."

[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Paver Man Continued: "Please provide some substanative support for your opinion on the economic impact directly attributable to the fountains of Bellagio, both to the greater community and specifically for the resort operation...I would be very interested as it would be relevant to my profession.
But I think the only things available are anecdotal perspectives and assumptions; not real data. Its virtually impossible to estimate the contributory value of a non-income producing asset, it has high costs but no revenues. But really, the fountains are not critical to the success of Bellagio..."

[gunt]

paver man sounds like a waste of skin.

[mantasm]

Try something like "ERGO; (LOL) OLL FUFUFUFUFUFUFUFU - HERETOFORE STFU LOLLL"

[Macedon]

OK, I guess that means I have to concede to this guy point.

{Those aren't great responses.}

[jaydub]

[ QUOTE ]
OK, I guess that means I have to concede to this guy point.

{Those aren't great responses.}

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a stupid argument that cannot be resolved by the people involved. Why bother?

[bobman0330]

It's an empirical question:
If the fountains weren't there, would there be an appreciable difference in Bellagio's revenue?

There's a second, related question:
Is Bellagio being charged enough for the water they use in their fountains to reflect its cost to others?

If the answer to the second question is yes, then the fountains are probably worthwhile. If the answer is no, who knows.

[Macedon]

[ QUOTE ]
It's a stupid argument that cannot be resolved by the people involved. Why bother?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why bother? Because I think he is wrong and out of principle---principle being: one should never concede an argument to a jerk.

One could argue, only anecdotally perhaps, that what Steven Wynn and others introduced with their "theme" hotels---the Mirage, with the volcanos; Caesars Palace, with the roman architecture; Treasure Island, with the pirate show, etc.---has contributed greatly to Vegas's appeal [over other gambling towns] and CAN be considered a significant factor in its economic success. Without these "free" entertainments, Vegas would be just another Atlantic City, or Reno, and wouldn't have half the success it now enjoys.

But I have no idea how to prove that.

It's not really worth arguing with someone who is clearly just looking for a fight, but...

[ QUOTE ]
Its virtually impossible to estimate the contributory value of a non-income producing asset, it has high costs but no revenues. But really, the fountains are not critical to the success of Bellagio..."

[/ QUOTE ]

Bellagio is full of assets like these... the wacky blown glass entryway, the vast expanses of marble, the stupid windmill... how many of these could you remove before Bellagio stopped being Bellagio? Just because you could probably remove one of their fancy amenities doesn't mean it has no value, since it is the cumulative effect that produces the aura of opulance.

[ QUOTE ]
[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Paver Man: [With sarcasm] "Don't they realize the fountains are everything? The success of Bellagio wasn't forged by quality of craftsmanship, excellent service, superior restaurants, priceless artwork and creativity...no, its from an overactive hose in the cement pond out front.

[/ QUOTE ]

So the fountains show no craftsmanship, are not artwork, and exhibit no creativity? This guy is clearly a cretin. What does he think about O? Another waste of resources? They don't need the water, after all.

[moondogg]

[ QUOTE ]
Why bother? Because I think he is wrong and out of principle---principle being: one should never concede an argument to a jerk.


[/ QUOTE ]

You are in for a whole life of miserable frustration.

[jaydub]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's a stupid argument that cannot be resolved by the people involved. Why bother?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why bother? Because I think he is wrong and out of principle---principle being: one should never concede an argument to a jerk.

One could argue, only anecdotally perhaps, that what Steven Wynn and others introduced with their "theme" hotels---the Mirage, with the volcanos; Caesars Palace, with the roman architecture; Treasure Island, with the pirate show, etc.---has contributed greatly to Vegas's appeal [over other gambling towns] and CAN be considered a significant factor in its economic success. Without these "free" entertainments, Vegas would be just another Atlantic City, or Reno, and wouldn't have half the success it now enjoys.

But I have no idea how to prove that.

[/ QUOTE ]

because you cannot prove that which is why it cannot be resolved. neither of you has the information to make a statement backed with fact and thus are just doing a lot of dick waving.