20-40 Pocket Jacks hand

[Noo Yawk]

Elysium, my man!
If I thought that I was beat by a bigger pair or an overcard shouldn't I have folded pre-flop? The fact is, I thought before and still do during the hand, that I'm ahead, especially when the second Ace hits the turn and MP bets right into me. If he has an Ace isn't a thinking player going to go for the check raise and try to trap both his opponents? Especially if he knows I'm very likely to bet out the turn if checked to?
Isn't it worth raising when bet into me if I think I can get him to possibly lay down K's. Q's or a smaller Ace? I especially need to move UTG of some silly Q or K right?

[Nightwish]

[ QUOTE ]
Elysium, my man!
If I thought that I was beat by a bigger pair or an overcard shouldn't I have folded pre-flop? The fact is, I thought before and still do during the hand, that I'm ahead, especially when the second Ace hits the turn and MP bets right into me. If he has an Ace isn't a thinking player going to go for the check raise and try to trap both his opponents? Especially if he knows I'm very likely to bet out the turn if checked to? Isn't it worth raising when bet into me if I think I can get him to possibly lay down K's. Q's or a smaller Ace?

[/ QUOTE ]
IMHO, all of your responses so far sound like an ex post facto attempt to rationalize your play. The fact is that very very few opponents will 3-bet the turn with a hand that doesn't beat yours. It sounds like you ran into one of them, but I'm not sure if it says much regarding the correct (in an average sense) play in this situation.

[turnipmonster]

I think you can rule out most aces, because of the lack of flop checkraise. he is in a perfect position to whipsaw the weak guy, almost any A will checkraise. my only problem is I don't think your opponent will make this play with 22-44, so I think it's a marginal situation where you are ahead of 88-TT and losing sometimes to KK-QQ and sometimes he will have AK there despite our read.

--turnipmonster

[George Rice]

I would have just called the turn bet. He's representing an ace. If he doesn't have one fine, you can catch his bluff(s). Would he isolate from middle position with an weak ace? Even if he did, I doubt he would 3 bet the turn after you raised. Would he three bet with KK or QQ? The second ace reduces the chances you have one but if that's what he thinks why 3 bet? He could just call your raise and check call the river if he misses the boat.

As for betting with an ace on the turn, he may be afraid you'll check behind him. Afterall, you must have the case ace if you have one, so he'd have to check hoping you'll bluff at the pot.

The weak player may have an ace. If not, then going for the overcall isn't that bad, is it? He might be calling with a hopeless hand.

[Noo Yawk]

Hi George,
I prefer to win the pot right there. By raising the turn I get the 3rd player out with any possible K or Q. The presence of a 3rd player when I raise looks more like an Ace to MP, so there is even a slight chance he may lay down Kings or queens here, if I'm not ahead.

[Noo Yawk]

Hi Nightwish,

Not trying to rationalize anything after the fact. I wouldn't have posted the hand if I didn't want criticism.

[badinfluence]

See, I just don't get that line of thinking ... wanting to "win the pot right there" which is all fine and good, but then you get 3 bet ... so know you must consider you are beat.

you are probably just drawing ... perhaps dead to boot ... so let's balance drawing dead and an overagressive play as negating factors and you are getting ~14-1 on a ~22-1 call ... looks like bad poker to me.

The river bet furthers the point and should drive the knife in further. As elysium said, "He expects you to call. You are going to lose."

You had a plan, it didn't work ... so shut down ... and btw, shutting down doesn't mean calling ... if it does, then hell, I better get in your game.

where was this 20 game ... in the city?

[Noo Yawk]

Hi Bad Influence,
I know in most cases, yes I'm beat. But in most cases this would have been an easy fold pre-flop. Not only do I not believe I'm drawing, but I believe there's a better than 50% chance I'm ahead. His betting the turn when an Ace hit with an almost certain opportunity to check-raise two players has me a bit suspicious. His 3 bet could easily be an attempt to get me off a bigger pair once UTG drops.
The bet on the river, well I expected some follow through.
But no way I'm folding the river if I don't fold the turn.

BTW, the game is not in NYC, and I don't blame you one bit for wanting to get in a game with some loose cannon calling station like me [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[Noo Yawk]

MP showed Pocket 9's. Good job Turnip Monster!

BTW, I think his turn raise was brilliant. As a matter of fact, by the large number of posters that fold here, I know it was.

[badinfluence]

hahaha. very funny.

My major contention is on the turn. My opinion you're done. The river call is splitting hairs, and I think it does come down to table image.

The real question is what sort of player was MP? Anyone decent, my general feeling is your dead ... drunk LAGs ... well they might be diff story.