Rebuy and Stack Size Strategy? --> good M but poor Q

[suckbot]

I've tried to search and haven't found anything on this topic, so apologies if this has already been discussed heavily.

When playing in rebuys, the dominant early strategy by the field seems to be build as large of a stack as quickly as possible. People will take coin flips (and worse) without a second thought, knowing they can get more chips with a mouse click.

The result is often I sometimes find mself at the end of the break with what would be a decent stack size in a conventional tournament but dwarfed by a lot of the competition in a rebuy. Case in point, I had 4,500 in chips shortly into the second hour. blinds were still like 75/150, which means my M was roughly 20, but the average was over 9000, for a Q of .5 (table was about the same.. some lower, but most had more chips)

This creates an artificial situation where people were overbetting the pot on a regular basis because their relative stack sizes were so large.

My typical strategy is try to be patient, and wait for a good hand to try to double up, but I'm not sure how best to play in what situation.

your thoughts are greatly appreciated.

[Lloyd]

I will try and say this as diplomatically as possible. I apologize in advance if it comes off the wrong way.

I'm always amazed at how people can throw out Q and M without fully understanding everything Harrington said on the topic. Implementing any idea without fully comprehending the subject, and really understanding the thought process going into it, is a recipe for disaster.

Harrington specifically addresses your question in HOH II.

How do you play if you take a hit early in a freezeout? Basically the same situation here. What you're observing w/r/t overbets, etc. is the less than optimal poker that gets played deepstacked - that's an advantage for you.

The fact that you're hitting the freezeout phase consistently in this position suggests you may want to revisit how you're playing the rebuy period - you're probably not capitalizing on as many positive chip EV situations as you could. For some this is based on bankroll - if that's the case move down in the rebuys or stick to freezeouts.

w/r/t M&Q (and running the risk of exposing myself as yet another applying what I don't understand - which BTW I'm ready to acknowledge and couldn't refute if I wasn't) - Dan said simply and directly that M was the dominant factor and I don't recall him utilizing Q all that often in his hand analysis. Personally, in the early/mid stages of a tourney, I only use Q as a factor in determining how much edge I need to risk a percentage of my stack. If my Q was .5 I'd happily get it all in w/ the heavy end of a coinflip, if my Q was 3 or 4 I would pass an all-in w/ that edge (there're a number of views and many other threads discussing this - this is just mine).

Have fun,
HC

[suckbot]

[ QUOTE ]
I will try and say this as diplomatically as possible. I apologize in advance if it comes off the wrong way.

I'm always amazed at how people can throw out Q and M without fully understanding everything Harrington said on the topic. Implementing any idea without fully comprehending the subject, and really understanding the thought process going into it, is a recipe for disaster.

Harrington specifically addresses your question in HOH II.

[/ QUOTE ]

My ignorance was precisely the reason for the questions. I am 1/2 way though HOH II and am trying to understand the concept in this situation.

As far as taking it the wrong way, I can't say your response was especially diplomatic, but entirely accurate regarding my not "fully understanding everything Harrington said on the topic."

[sammiK7os]

I have not read HOH, but I will try to answer you post as best I can as someone with alot of MTT experience and especially good results in rebuy tournaments.

Firstly you should always see a rebuy tournament buy-in as 10xs the actual initial buy in. You certainly wont always need that but if that seems like too much, as a previous poster said, move down a level.

Secondly you will ideally want to be one of the large stacks by the end of the rebuy period. There are always exceptions but it isnt really that hard to do.

I dont take coinflips unless my stack, or thier stack, is low anyway and i will only loose one buy in. But at this stage of a tournament, unless you have a read on an apponent AK or any pair TTs and above, is not really coinflip as you will so often get called by a worse/dominated hand. I dont know much about odds but I think the odds of this happening plus the fact you can rebuy make up for the times you have the worst of it.

This doesnt really happen that often though, where I make my chips is by exploiting any kind of edge. Target your oppennets and try estimate as soon as you can which ones are gamblers and/or which ones will pay you off with a worse hand. Then when you are up against them bet all your hands (where you are guessing your are ahead) really strongly.

When you are playing on party and you are up against someone who probably wont commit to a hand they are behing on (therefore will likely fold), go all in anyway and take a rebuy while you are at it.

This is a very simple approach in theory but it works for me.

Stack size, if we take Party as an example, I love to have about 10,000. chips by the break and then an add on. I play my best poker then.

If you do have less than that but you are comfortable with the blinds then just play your normal game. Even if some people at your table have 5xs you stack its irrelevant, all that matters is some have more than you, which I am sure you will agree is a very normal occurence.

Am playing 2 rebuys right now actually, PS25k and PP15k, both as Sammiantha.

Good Luck.

[Lloyd]

You are correct in that Dan said that "M" was the dominant force and that "Q" is often an unnecessary and non-useful measure. Where "Q" comes into play is in satellites, not so much in regular tournaments.

Now, your use of "Q" for deciding when to take a coin flip is not necessarily a bad application. But let's imagine a situation where your "Q" was .5 but your "M" is 40. That's not unusual in a deepstack tournament. Blinds are 50/100, you've got a stack of 4,000 and the average is 8,000. Would you take a coin flip (and when I say coin flip I mean any situation where you're getting even odds)? I wouldn't. I have more than enough chips to play. I won't pass up a +EV spot but if I'm a 55/45 dog getting 1.2 to 1 odds I really don't need to take that risk. So even in that situation, "M" (along with EV calculations and other factors) is the determining factor, not "Q".

[ZeroPointMachine]

I hope the next poker author to introduce a concept using a letter variable dies in some horrible buffet accident.

[McMelchior]

[ QUOTE ]
I hope the next poker author to introduce a concept using a letter variable dies in some horrible buffet accident.

[/ QUOTE ]Are you trying to be funny? Or do you think "Shania" or "Pot Equity" are better names for a poker concepts than "M" and "Q"?

I'm truly not sure why Lloyd (who's even a mod) would lunge at the OP.

First of all, if we can't speak about a concept until we understand everything the author says about it, then why have a board here?

Secondly, I see no where in the OP that Q is suggested as a trigger for coin flips.

To the OP: It's my impression (I'm currently on my second reading of HOH II) that Q is irrelevant through 95% of most tournaments - and really doesn't come into play until the final table has become short-handed. I believe most players (my self included) would have marginally better results if we didn't know our Q (super satellites excluded, of course). If anything it tends to either provoke panic or hubris - so not helpful.

Best,

McMelchior (Johan)

[AceofSpades]

If the table is playing a different style of poker than usual
then of course you need to adjust. Personally I'd probably tighten up because my stack size lacks any power, and people are generally not as tight calling raises with deep stacks.

you also have time to wait for a better hand because your "M" is high.

- j