the dude who's raising preflop, he's got QQ. I've got T8s. I...

[steveyz]

If the game has been quite loose (as most 4-8s are), then I go ahead and cold call. Only if the game has been very tight or very aggro would I fold.

[Spicymoose]

[ QUOTE ]
BTW/ i voted raise, but i would raise even i hadnt seen the guys cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol. I can never tell when you are serious or not.

[ErrantNight]

Short of written guarantees from players behind you that they're flop-bound I can't see how playing such a weak hand against QQ (or KK, or AA) will be correct since he will go to showdown pretty much always.

[Garland]

My question to you is: Why are you trying to play mind games and tricks in a small stakes limit hold em' game?

Just about anyone will tell you that as you described the table, playing the game straight up will win you the most money. Of course no-limit and higher stakes limit are a different beast altogether...

Garland

[bigt2k4]

if u were gonna fold b4 he showed u his cards, then dont be a cheat and stay in, just fold.

[Alexthegreat]

[ QUOTE ]
if u were gonna fold b4 he showed u his cards, then dont be a cheat and stay in, just fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

hahahahaha. If you had A3 and you were gonna fold but he flashed you A2 as he open raised, , would you still fold? if yes, dumb.

[elindauer]

That's an interesting theory barron. You say intuitively you can get there. I feel intuitively you can't. I'm too lazy to do any rigorous math, so on some level we'll have to agree to disagree.

One thing to consider though is how bad the call would be if you did not know the raiser's hand. You are totally dominated, it would be awful. You agree, right?

Now, as more players enter the pot, it's going to be harder and harder for you to outplay everybody, even with the knowledge of 1 players hand. Where are the extra wins going to come from?

Presumably, you must be able to win unimproved or slightly improved more often because you know the Qs hand. I'm sure you pick up something, but I suspect it's not much. Qs have a way of sticking to a player's hand. If there is an overcard out, you have to raise and hope that a) the other guys don't have the overcard, and b) the Qs will fold. That's an expensive bluff when it fails.

If there is no overcard, you will rarely be succesful in bluffing out the Qs. And with the Qs on your right, you can't even take advantage of knowing he'll value bet through the field letting you check-raise those times you do get lucky and make a big hand.

These are just qualatative arguments of course. I'm not proving the case. Just trying to let you know why my intuition says the fold is bad. You start way down, and don't have that many ways to make up ground.

-Eric

[creedofhubris]

[ QUOTE ]
My question to you is: Why are you trying to play mind games and tricks in a small stakes limit hold em' game?

Just about anyone will tell you that as you described the table, playing the game straight up will win you the most money. Of course no-limit and higher stakes limit are a different beast altogether...

Garland

[/ QUOTE ]

I was playing ABC. In the real hand, I folded. Just wondering if people agreed that that was the proper play, especially in a somewhat bigger limit game.

[DcifrThs]

eric, you've always been one of my favorite people to debate. keep it coming.

[ QUOTE ]
That's an interesting theory barron. You say intuitively you can get there. I feel intuitively you can't. I'm too lazy to do any rigorous math, so on some level we'll have to agree to disagree.


[/ QUOTE ]

if you say so.

[ QUOTE ]


One thing to consider though is how bad the call would be if you did not know the raiser's hand. You are totally dominated, it would be awful. You agree, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

but we know i wouldn't be making the call if i was HU vs. him. i.e. if he raise the BU w/ QQ and i saw his hand and was SB w/ T8s id fold. no problem. but here im in a position to build the pot to a nice large one where QQ is actually feeding me the implied odds that a hand like T8s loves.

in economics and finance, decisions are made based on the marginal contribution of decision A vs. decision B. similarly, if we normalize everything by pot odds, the increased contribution to our equity of the next entrance into the pot is greater w/ T8s than w/ a ahnd like KTo.

[ QUOTE ]

Now, as more players enter the pot, it's going to be harder and harder for you to outplay everybody, even with the knowledge of 1 players hand. Where are the extra wins going to come from?

[/ QUOTE ]

its not extra wins. and you're not trying to outplay everyone. you're trying to maximize your odds when u have a draw vs. maximize your chance of winning. i think your position vs. the raiser is worth the premium u pay to enter.

[ QUOTE ]

Presumably, you must be able to win unimproved or slightly improved more often because you know the Qs hand. I'm sure you pick up something, but I suspect it's not much. Qs have a way of sticking to a player's hand. If there is an overcard out, you have to raise and hope that a) the other guys don't have the overcard, and b) the Qs will fold. That's an expensive bluff when it fails.

[/ QUOTE ]

but its not a full bluff. when you DO choose to put money in the pot w/ T8s its almost certainly in a situation where you have a good deal of equity. knowoing a player's hand and having position on that player and relative position vs. the field is a very good thing.


[ QUOTE ]

If there is no overcard, you will rarely be succesful in bluffing out the Qs. And with the Qs on your right, you can't even take advantage of knowing he'll value bet through the field letting you check-raise those times you do get lucky and make a big hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

the c'r thing is a big loss relatively speaking.

[ QUOTE ]


These are just qualatative arguments of course. I'm not proving the case. Just trying to let you know why my intuition says the fold is bad. You start way down, and don't have that many ways to make up ground.

-Eric

[/ QUOTE ]

well you may start down but you can end up overall up.

Barron

[elindauer]

Hi Barron,

I like your arguments, they make qualitative sense. We're just in disagreement about the magnitude of the effects. You argue that you can make up your preflop equity loss because lots of players are going to coldcall along with you. I certainly agree that if the pot gets big enough, you may turn a profit.

I'm a little more skeptical that a big pot is going to develop consistently enough, and you are going to win it often enough though, that you can overcome what we both agree is a preflop sacrifice.

Without one of us hunkering down and crunching numbers, I think we're at a standstill. I'm not convinced, but I do respect your opinion and concede that I could be wrong.

good luck.
eric