the dude who's raising preflop, he's got QQ. I've got T8s. I...

[creedofhubris]

OK. I was actually sitting in a 9-handed 4-8 game for laughs and the guy sitting next to me UTG+1 flashed me his Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] as he open-raised preflop. I was sitting on T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and folded quickly.

But I'm no longer at all sure that was the proper move, given that I knew his hand.

I'm curious what you all would do in a 15-30 live game, if you saw those hole cards and were next to act.

[The Truth]

You can flip the situation around a bit to make calling better. Change the hands to where you are at less of a disadvantage. Change positions etc.

In this instance though, the leverage you can get over the other players in the pot isn't great enough to overcome you lack of equity.

blake

[DcifrThs]

im against there grain here i guess.

at 4-8 id call and hope to build a large pot.

one of the things about this hand is that if the flop is Tc5h2s and you have top pair no kicker bd flush and its bet into you, you are gunna do the same thing as you would have called in sb after button raised in front of you except this time you KNOW the raiser's cards. you can now raise flops that are scary like A53 w/ 2 hearts and play the hand more aggressively to put maximum pressure on him to make a mistake, which he's more likely to believe you in the multiway pot. i bet your sb calling standards go down a lot if you know the button's cards. in fact, that is an interesting question in and of itself. this post is great b/c it provokes DS type questions, the analysis of which open your mind to good ways to think about the game. im just roaming here.

anyways, you dont have just him to be worried about. at any limit if UTG+1 raises and UTG+2 cold calls, there's likely a pot 'a brewin. i dont mind paying the maybe 3:1 against out of 1big bet (HU, much less multiway) if i am likely going into a big multiway pot with relative position AND info that nobody else has ...which i can now exploit.

a few questions: does HE know you saw his cards?

would 3 betting get this HU or 3 way with you in position? how likely?

Barron

The -EV of having a worse hand going in is made up for (and more) by the hugely positive EV knowing his cards. I would almost certainly reraise and try to get it heads up between me and queens.

First, you want to be 100% sure where you are in the hand at all times, and you cannot do that with other hands in the pot. Next, once you are 100% sure where you are, and more importantly where he is, you can totally outplay him postflop. Finally, if he just won't be outplayed (maybe gets super stuboorn and calls down with an A or K on board), or if you actually win and you have to show down, it's great for metagame purposes.

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
The -EV of having a worse hand going in is made up for (and more) by the hugely positive EV knowing his cards. I would almost certainly reraise and try to get it heads up between me and queens.

[/ QUOTE ]

Come on now. Most players are showdown bound when the have queens. You simply will not make a hand often enough to justify the preflop expense. And I'm totally ignoring the possibility of somebody waking up behind you with another big hand.

-Eric

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The -EV of having a worse hand going in is made up for (and more) by the hugely positive EV knowing his cards. I would almost certainly reraise and try to get it heads up between me and queens.

[/ QUOTE ]

Come on now. Most players are showdown bound when the have queens. You simply will not make a hand often enough to justify the preflop expense. And I'm totally ignoring the possibility of somebody waking up behind you with another big hand.

-Eric

[/ QUOTE ]

thats the thing...if we're JUST talking about outplaying him HU then of course you fold. QQ will call down tons of the time hu.

but we are very likely now to be multiway. two early folks just put in 1bb each, people will now come in with more hands. i think this may be true so i'll write it then think about it:

on the margin, each additional player that enters in this spot gives us a > equity gain/increase in pot odds. ok so you were getting 1.25+1:1 immediate pot odds plus you know raisers hand. w/ KTo, if another person calls, you get the same 1.25+2:1 that you got before but now like your hand less as more people enter the pot (you wont win it often enough and will end up paying off 2nd best more often in general), so your equity (including playability of hand)/pot odds INCREASE would be <1. w/ T8s i think that as more people enter the pot the additional money in there will (to a point) yield a equity/pot odds ratio of > 1.

Barron

[creedofhubris]

[ QUOTE ]

anyways, you dont have just him to be worried about. at any limit if UTG+1 raises and UTG+2 cold calls, there's likely a pot 'a brewin. i dont mind paying the maybe 3:1 against out of 1big bet (HU, much less multiway) if i am likely going into a big multiway pot with relative position AND info that nobody else has ...which i can now exploit.

a few questions: does HE know you saw his cards?

would 3 betting get this HU or 3 way with you in position? how likely?

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

In the game I was in, which was 4-8 (as I said), 3-betting would possibly get headsup, possibly get 5-way action as everyone and their grandmother comes in with random pocket pairs. I would expect it to get HU about 50% of the time, I've got a tight image.

The gentleman in question does not know he's flashed me his cards.

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]

In the game I was in, which was 4-8 (as I said), 3-betting would possibly get headsup, I've got a tight image.


[/ QUOTE ]
WOW.
like, 4.00/8.00USD?
dude dont be such a nit!
youre playing tight in a 4/8 game, why?

[flawless_victory]

BTW/ i voted raise, but i would raise even i hadnt seen the guys cards.

[creedofhubris]

[ QUOTE ]
You can flip the situation around a bit to make calling better. Change the hands to where you are at less of a disadvantage. Change positions etc.

In this instance though, the leverage you can get over the other players in the pot isn't great enough to overcome you lack of equity.

blake

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I thought at first (whoa, I'm a massive dog, time to fold.) But I'm no longer as sure, because knowing for certain his holding makes it a lot easier to blast him off it if the right cards come. This concept is key in NL,my usual game, where if I saw his QQ hole cards I would not have considered folding this, just whether to call or 3-bet.

I now think that if I saw that he had JJ instead of QQ, 3-betting is by far the best move despite the fact that I have two unders, because now I can represent AKQ if it hits as well as milking my own hand for all its value.