Stream and Sara in pot building frenzy

[lstream]

So seat 2 is our very own and well respected vintage_sara. Last time I posted a hand with her in it I called her evil which was not nice at all. Comments on all streets welcome - I figured I had the odds to be pushing this hand hard. Thoughts? Remaining villain is an OK player.

7 Card Stud High ($5/$10), Ante $0.50, Bring-In $2 (converter)

3rd Street - (0.70 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 2: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Hero: K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___completes___calls
Seat 4: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 5: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls___folds

4th Street - (7.50 SB)

Seat 2: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls___calls___calls
Hero: K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises___raises
Seat 4: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets___raises___calls

5th Street - (9.75 BB)

Seat 2: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 4: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets

6th Street - (12.75 BB)

Seat 2: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 4: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls

River - (15.75 BB)

Seat 2: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] xx___raises
Hero: K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets___calls
Seat 4: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___folds

Total pot: (19.75 BB)

[bigredlemon]

No raise on river?
Looks like she was drawing to a flush that got there on the river, and I think your K flush is probably good.

Also, how come no raise on 5th? You just might buy a free card and convince everyone that you're not drawing to a flush. If you act first next round, there's a good chance your hand is best so having to bet out wouldn't be bad either. Or would the 5th raise be too manical??

[RayGarlington]

your title is misleading, because Sara is just watching you two pot builders. I think she has the Ad (and maybe the Kd too).

[jon_1van]

Because seat 2 is sara you have to take a dramatically different line on this hand.

When sara cold calls 8 on 3rd she has 2 hands, A 3 flush with an overcard to the Q, or rolled 9s. I really think she raises with pocket KK,AA,and probably JJ. I'm not worried about pocket QQ because there is a dead Queen.

So, when you 4th rolls around I don't think you are in a "great" spot. You aren't in a bad spot yet.

Because I think I'm against 999 or an equal(or better) 4 flush I think the proper play is to call on 4th. But I very well could throw in a raise as an "auto-pilot" play.

Now, when you catch a 9 on fifth I think you can put sara in an ironclad "4-flush" box.

When you get raised on the river I think you are probably beat. I think this because I think sara NEEDS a K or A to call 3rd. So when she hits her flush she probably has a better K flush than you or her A flush just beats you outright.

Because this is sara I'm quite sure you lost this hand. There is obviously enough money in the pot to justify a call in case your K high flush does happen to be best.

Even if you went ape and 3-bet 7th I don't think you get capped on.

[Michael Emery]

Hey Stream-

No need to raise third, however, I would raise on fifth. Sara or not you're kinda stuck paying off the river here. I hope she raised you with a lower flush.

Mike Emery

[BeerMoney]

lstream, when you raise third, you should realize that you're likely knocking out other hands when one of the participants you will be playing against is another solid player. You don't really want that. Let others in with your drawing hand when its likely you probably don't have the best hand.

[MRBAA]

Exactly . This is why in general raising three flushes early is so often bad, even when the other opponents aren't great. YOu often wind up narrowing down the field to just you and the best hand or two.

[lstream]

I think I disagree with the objection to the third street raise with a three flush. In my case, I won't make this raise every time, but I think you have to sprinkle these raises into your play once in a while. The deceptive value that this creates at 5/10 tables has been very profitable for me.

Here is why I decided to raise in this case:

1. I already have two callers. I admit that one of them is Sara which complicates things, but I thought there was a good chance I would get at least one more and have a four way pot.

2. My clubs are entirely live so there is a good chance I will catch another one on fourth. I have found two suited cards on fourth is a real action killer if you just limp in with a three flush. People put you on a flush draw more often when that happens. If I can tie people on a little tighter on third then the fourth street action seems to hold up better.

3. Sara did worry me, and I was concerned about her being on a flush draw too. On the other hand, one of her diamonds was dead and none of my clubs was dead. With the king, I was not convinced I was behind if she was on a flush draw, and I gave myself the credit for having a slightly better chance to make the flush. Did she really need an ace or king of diamonds to make her call on third? I didn't think so, but I could very easily be wrong on this one.

4. Also regarding Sara - she does not play crap starting hands as we all know. So she is very unlikely to fold to my completion, so I was less worried about the completion killing all my action. I was more worried about her staying in the hand, so I wanted to show some degree of strength to build my percentages that she would fold on fourth or later.

5. My king is live

I am not saying that these are valid reasons to make the raise, but thats what I was thinking at the time. Could be bad judgement against a player who is clearly better than me, which is why I came looking for help on this one [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[jon_1van]

I don't mind the 3rd street raise.

You have an overcard to the highest card out.
Your overcard is live.
Your clubs are 100% live.
You already have 2 callers.

If raising 3 flushes if EVER right, this is the time to do it. The raise may not be hugely +EV but I doubt it is -EV

[Roland]

My guess is 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

First, I think Chef mucks there with just an ace high 3-flush but completes with AdKd9d. With three to a straight-flush, limping looks like the best play, especially since her pair cards are somewhat dead, but of course she’s not folding to the re-raise.

Second, I believe she would raise with an ace high 4-flush on 4th. At least that’s what I’d do - I don’t mind if you fold, and I don’t mind if you call two cold, either.
With the straight-flush draw, on the other hand, she’d like you to call. It will be tough for you to call two cold with just jacks or tens, though. Thus, no raise.

Nevertheless, I’m unsure about the river. After you cap it on 4th, she knows you’re on a flush draw, and since you completed, you probably have an ace or king. So is she going to raise here with just a straight or a smaller 3-flush?
On the other hand, you have an open pair so you could just be betting kings or aces up you made on the river.
Also, maybe all this is way off, and she did start with an ace high 3-flush after all.
I think just calling is better. (She’s certainly going to cap it with a straight-flush after all [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] ).