My contribution to all the "turning pro" posts. LONG

I am a pro..well by most people's standards. I make my living through poker. I took the leap two years ago. I am 27, two children, mortgage, etc....

I can't give you advice, I don't know you or your situation well enough, BUT!!! You better know you're a winner. Not just be up over the last couple of months. You have to know before sitting down that there is no possibility that anyone has done more preparation, no one is paying more attention to the game, and no one is more relaxed.

Knowing the odds and being a short term winner isn't giving you an accurate view of reality. You have to be able to perform day in and day out at your best under the pressure of knowing that if you don't win--you don't eat.

I would recommend schoonmaker's Psychology of poker.

I can also give you some stats of my own. I started with 25K. I play in the $10-20 and $20-40. I only play about 8 days out of the month and I average somewhere around 9-12K a month. I play online everyday---small stakes. I play in two home games a week. It sounds great, BUT, I know I'm a great player. I also have a good bankroll and a college degree to fall back on. I study something to do with poker for an hour everyday and have for years. I excercise, eat very healthy, get plenty of sleep, etc... Between online and live play I average playing somewhere around 800 hands a DAY. I am a model of consistency and self control.

I'm not telling you this to brag, but you and everyone should know that poker takes the same attributes as any other profession to be great. Hard work, dedication, and consistency. You're not leaving one job to play poker professionally---You're leaving one job for another job.

If you don't treat it that way, or think it will be different for you YOU WILL LOSE

my honest opinion from your posts is that you're not ready...sorry, but I believe that you would already be president of the company you work for if you presently had what it takes to be a true pro. Succesful poker pros would be successful at anything they did. They are willing to do the things that others are not to be winners... Just like you could take just about any CEO or successful business owner and make a great poker pro out of them.

Sincerely,
unseasoned pro

there will be an army of people that will silently fail miserably at pro poker, because 1. they dont have the talent. and 2. poker is soooo much luck. does anyone realize that 70% of poker is waiting until two players have good hands, they go all in, and one of them loses when he did nothing wrong?

[flair1239]

Just a couple random thoughts.

Somewhere in Mid-high in the "A very Tommy Hand" thread, Tommy Angelo is giving his thought process on how he played a hand. Towards the end he says something like: "I had no hand, no position, but lots of time...so I folded"

It was the "lots of time" comment that interested me. I wondered, how many of the Internet Pros on this site have "lot's of time." , Especially those who are playing 5/10 or lower.

What do you need to have "lots of time" as a pro? I think this means that you have your finances in order and that they are not necessarily dependent on extreme short term results.

Can you go a month or two without winning and making a withdrawl.

Think about it. Say you are playing 5/10 and you have a $10,000 bankroll. Say you need to clear 3000 a month, minimum, which may mean $4000 before taxes.

Say you have a couple short months... where is the shortfall going to come from? If it comes from savings, then you have a cushion, you won't have to pillage your bankroll. But say your savings are not adequate, and say you have to take from your bankroll. Maybe the end of the month looks like this: You had a weak month and only grossed $2500, you withdraw, then and need another $1,000 to get by. If that $1,000 needs to come from your bankroll, you have in essence inflicted a 100BB downswing for the month on your bankroll. It (your bankroll) does not know the difference between a withdrawl and a downswing.

Numerous posts lately have dealt with short term/long term. The concensus seems to be it is important not to get too tied into your short-term results as that can negatively affect your play when things do not go well. I submit to you that there are many players who depend upon their poker income entirely or partially , for whom it is impossible to ignore short term results, since they are depending upon them to pay their bills for that month (ie they don't have the cushion that they need.)

So if you are going to turn pro, you obviously want to be able to play optimally as much as possible. I think it is important to structure your finances as such that month to month results, will not have a large impct on you financially.

If you cannot arrange your finances that way, you probably should not turn pro.

[livinitup0]

[ QUOTE ]
I am a pro..well by most people's standards. I make my living through poker. I took the leap two years ago. I am 27, two children, mortgage, etc....

I can't give you advice, I don't know you or your situation well enough, BUT!!! You better know you're a winner. Not just be up over the last couple of months. You have to know before sitting down that there is no possibility that anyone has done more preparation, no one is paying more attention to the game, and no one is more relaxed.

Knowing the odds and being a short term winner isn't giving you an accurate view of reality. You have to be able to perform day in and day out at your best under the pressure of knowing that if you don't win--you don't eat.

I would recommend schoonmaker's Psychology of poker.

I can also give you some stats of my own. I started with 25K. I play in the $10-20 and $20-40. I only play about 8 days out of the month and I average somewhere around 9-12K a month. I play online everyday---small stakes. I play in two home games a week. It sounds great, BUT, I know I'm a great player. I also have a good bankroll and a college degree to fall back on. I study something to do with poker for an hour everyday and have for years. I excercise, eat very healthy, get plenty of sleep, etc... Between online and live play I average playing somewhere around 800 hands a DAY. I am a model of consistency and self control.

I'm not telling you this to brag, but you and everyone should know that poker takes the same attributes as any other profession to be great. Hard work, dedication, and consistency. You're not leaving one job to play poker professionally---You're leaving one job for another job.

If you don't treat it that way, or think it will be different for you YOU WILL LOSE

my honest opinion from your posts is that you're not ready...sorry, but I believe that you would already be president of the company you work for if you presently had what it takes to be a true pro. Succesful poker pros would be successful at anything they did. They are willing to do the things that others are not to be winners... Just like you could take just about any CEO or successful business owner and make a great poker pro out of them.

Sincerely,
unseasoned pro

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for the advice. Seriously...and this goes for everyone here... anyone that takes time out of their day to help me is a true colleague/friend in my book. I have to disagree with some of your comments though... First. 800 hands a day to a 4-8 tabling 6 max player is a joke. Sorry, but seriously I play over 350-400 hands an hour, and this is a very low average. Secondly, I dont plan to play professional online poker for the rest of my life, just the few years while I go to school. Also at the amount of hands I play, "the R word" alone would pay me more than I make now, I prop. I make more than 3X almost every other player does in "r/b". Its about 2.5-3BB per hour per table.
I understand that this is your situation, and it works for you. But my situation and yours, and everyone else at 2+2 are all different.
Lastly, about the President of my company comment..my CEO makes 2mil. a year, he owns 51% of the company and I doubt is worried about any 24yr old genious(which im not), taking his job since hes married to the other owner's daughter. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Seriously you dont understand the buisness I'm in. Its a different type of lifestyle and job than anyone can imagine here unles you've done it. I do very unethical things to decent people just to gain revenue or security of revenue for my company....both consumers and my crew of collectors...it's my job to protect the compnay, not myself, nor my employees.
Bill colectors are A22holes, bill collector managers are even bigger A22holes, and collection agency CEO's and directors are Satan. All the rumors and stories you here about us are probably true. Lie, cheat, and steal, the motto of a good collector.
If you can't tell from my sarcasm, I'm far too nice of a guy personally to be such a D!ck at work, it gets hadrer and harder to keep Richard the D!ck and Rick the laid back, poker player, nice guy, musician dude seperated. That's the root of the whole problem.
I think Ive gotten a ton of great advice in this post, but I think it's life expectancy is overdue [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
Basically I know now that to play 5/10 FT and going back to shcool is going to cost me about 20-25K total for all expenses...and thats before paying for school. Ive come to that and will be taking steps to constantly improve my game and maybe in a while I'll hit this mark and be confident enough to go at it. But for now "F@CK IT I'M GOING TO PLAY CARDS!!....after work, in between band practice and gigs, while working on my house...Who needs sleep?!!

Thanks for everything guys.

[livinitup0]

[ QUOTE ]
Uh, you might want to consider somewhere between 3-6 months living expenses, in addition to your bankroll as well.

Right now I'm going semi-pro. I don't rely on poker to pay the bills, but I take it more serious than a recreational hobby. I have been a winning player this year (slight loser last year, kept statistics, but I've studied A LOT more this year and improved my game quite a bit)

I'm not making enough to live off of, but I'm enjoying it and it's profitable. I work, as does my soon-to-be-wife. We have no children and no intention of having them, so that makes it easier.

Since you have a wife and kids and mortgage, I recommend the following:

1. Leave the wife and kids

2. Buy a dog, you need some type of companionship, plus he can protect you when you sleep on the streets in the back alley

3. Hang around casinos wearing "urban" clothing and majorly tacky "bling". Harass the regulars until they begin staking you, then forget to pay them back, or complain how you're "stuck" and can't pay the 100 bucks back (while you have 3 grand worth of chips in play)

4. Stop shaving regularly, the scruffy look is uber-pro

5. Start eating those ramon noodles, it'll prepare you for life as a poker pro and college student

6. Find some gold digging chick who will only stick around when you're winning. This will help you to play better, since you won't want to lose the nookie

7. Develop a coke habit and rob convenience stores and gas stations, then claim to be a "victim of circumstance"

8. Place 9th in the WSOP for $1 million (U.S.) and then casually remark how it was only worth your time to place in the top 3, and that this million will only pay off a few markers.

9. Blame various psychological disorders and medications for the cause of your outbursts at the tables.

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This list is just gold. You're going to get me in trouble at work for laughing too loud.

[Eurotrash]

[ QUOTE ]
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Out of curiousity, where have I seen your cactus before?

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that's Cactuar, a recurring character in the Final Fantasy series.
I think he debuted in FFIII in the desert. He usually ran away before you could kill him, but if you killed him, he gave tons of XP.
Love fighting Cactuar.

[/ QUOTE ]
Nope FFVII...

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i don't have much else to contribute to this thread other than Cactuar was, indeed, in FF6. I believe in FF7 he was renamed Cactrot (which he has been called ever since, I think)

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
This list is just gold. You're going to get me in trouble at work for laughing too loud.

[/ QUOTE ]

Glad to be a source of entertainment. Although some of my post was actually meant to be serious. Best of luck to you, whatever you choose.

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
Say you are playing 5/10 and you have a $10,000 bankroll. Say you need to clear 3000 a month, minimum

[/ QUOTE ]


$10k bankroll is insufficient for 5/10 and $3k monthly-nut.


2 months expenses (the minimum of what you should have in reserve) is $6k and that only leaves you 400BB for 5/10.
A nice 150BB+ down-swing is something you will REALLY feel and probably stress-about a lot. And such a down-swing will happen eventually (and probably when you are least likely to be able to tolerate it).

Seriously...I don't think I would put myself in such a situation (5/10, $10k roll, $3k/mth expenses) as you're just playing too short.


If I HAD to keep playing even with a $10k roll while oweing $3k/mth I would probably grind it out at 3/6 really hard (thank you rake-back and bonuses) and would feel more comfortable at 10/20 once I built my total up to $15k (which could take a little while since the first $3k that you earn each month goes right to expenses).


I would be more comfortable doing 5/10 on only $10k if I could cut my expenses down to $2k/mth for a stretch.
But even this almost feels thinnish to me (but probably isn't TOO dangerous).

Best of luck to you bud, I didn't mean to be so critical. AND I did say that I couldn't give you any great advice because I don't know you or your situation.

The president comment was just to point out that successful people are successful people. Before I quit my job I was on a quick and strong ride to the top. Most of the other pros I know are the same way. Poker pros aren't profitable because they're good at poker. They're profitable because of who they are.

I also have to tell you that I have one of the most rewarding and fulfilling lives that I can imagine. It has been a blessing for my family and I. I spend at least two hours a day playing with my daughters (7years & 18 months)and an awful lot of time with my wife.

I will tell you that I average 2bb/hr. in live play and my hourly expectation is better in online play when I only play at one table. (reason for the unexcessive amount of hands played by your view.) I still think that's a lot of hands. But I don't rely on my online winnings....as a matter of fact my wife usually loses whatever I win online...lol.

Anyway, I sincerely hope the best for you and your family. Hopefully someday we'll conversate over some felt.

Jcar12

[flair1239]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Say you are playing 5/10 and you have a $10,000 bankroll. Say you need to clear 3000 a month, minimum

[/ QUOTE ]


$10k bankroll is insufficient for 5/10 and $3k monthly-nut.


2 months expenses (the minimum of what you should have in reserve) is $6k and that only leaves you 400BB for 5/10.
A nice 150BB+ down-swing is something you will REALLY feel and probably stress-about a lot. And such a down-swing will happen eventually (and probably when you are least likely to be able to tolerate it).

Seriously...I don't think I would put myself in such a situation (5/10, $10k roll, $3k/mth expenses) as you're just playing too short.


If I HAD to keep playing even with a $10k roll while oweing $3k/mth I would probably grind it out at 3/6 really hard (thank you rake-back and bonuses) and would feel more comfortable at 10/20 once I built my total up to $15k (which could take a little while since the first $3k that you earn each month goes right to expenses).


I would be more comfortable doing 5/10 on only $10k if I could cut my expenses down to $2k/mth for a stretch.
But even this almost feels thinnish to me (but probably isn't TOO dangerous).

[/ QUOTE ]

Kind of the point of my post.