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  #1  
Old 08-25-2005, 03:35 PM
rvg72 rvg72 is offline
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Default Pocket 2\'s ITM with even stacks

All three of us played tight and aggressive poker and whenever our cards had been shown (due to someone calling an all-in) they were good.

So what do you do here with 22 in a $22?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t300 (3 handed) converter

Button (t2410)
Hero (t2700)
BB (t2890)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero ?</font>

I pushed and I know for sure that this is much better than folding - what I'm not sure about is if there was a better play.

Looking back on it I think a min-raise would have been better... The reason I say that is because I have noticed that a min-raise from an aggressive tight player often means a monster hoping for a call or re-raise and it gives me a way out if I get reraised...

I know min-raising is everybody's favorite move on 2+2 so I'm sure every response will be MIIIIIIIN RAIIIIIIISE...

rvg
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  #2  
Old 08-25-2005, 03:39 PM
brimstone1 brimstone1 is offline
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Default Re: Pocket 2\'s ITM with even stacks

My question is this, if he pushes on top of your min-raise, will you fold?

In that case, it might be "a" way to go, although not the best in my opinion.

I'm not a favorite of 22-55 ITM as a shortstack or even stacks.

Depends on your image, if you have any, I guess.
You might as well be pushing 23o if they think you're holding something, of course [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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  #3  
Old 08-25-2005, 03:48 PM
AliasMrJones AliasMrJones is offline
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Default Re: Pocket 2\'s ITM with even stacks

I thought pushing was everyone's favorite? I thought everyone hated min-raises? Where have I been?

You're under 10xBB, which for me is a magical line. Once I cross it, the decision is between push or fold. There is no limp. There is no min or 3xBB raise. Push or fold.

This looks like a no-brainer push to me. In fact, I'd push here with much less. (Like Jx.)
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  #4  
Old 08-25-2005, 03:50 PM
rvg72 rvg72 is offline
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Default Re: Pocket 2\'s ITM with even stacks

[ QUOTE ]
My question is this, if he pushes on top of your min-raise, will you fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

100% - probably even fold a re-raise of any kind. I'm just hoping to scare him here with the min raise to collect the blinds

[ QUOTE ]
Depends on your image, if you have any, I guess.
You might as well be pushing 23o if they think you're holding something, of course [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I had a good table image (I think [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]) - I wouldn't expect a call from this guy with anything less than 77+,AT+,KQ and that might be too loose of a range. I think you're joking about the 23o - with 22 I'm at least a coin flip from anything but another pocket pair but realistically the EV is probably not too far off between 23o and 22 given the likilihood of stealing.

rvg
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  #5  
Old 08-25-2005, 03:56 PM
rvg72 rvg72 is offline
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Default Re: Pocket 2\'s ITM with even stacks

[ QUOTE ]
I thought pushing was everyone's favorite? I thought everyone hated min-raises? Where have I been?

[/ QUOTE ]

I was being a little sarcastic!

I think that the push / fold mentality has its place (and I use it often) but one reason why it is so prelevant is because it is soooo easy to calculate whether or not pushing is better than folding. Calculating how +/- $ev a call / min raise / 3x raise at this point is much more difficult and much less accurate.

My thinking on the min-raise is that against another tight player, assuming he has noticed that I had not min-raised all game, he would very quickly throw this away unless he had a good hand. If he reraises I am out and still have a great stack. If he calls we play some poker and I heavily lean towards folding.

rvg
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  #6  
Old 08-25-2005, 04:01 PM
AliasMrJones AliasMrJones is offline
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Default Re: Pocket 2\'s ITM with even stacks

[ QUOTE ]
I'm just hoping to scare him here with the min raise to collect the blinds

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is the wrong way to think about it. You are a coin flip to anything but a pocket pair. If you push, You will get calls here with AK-T, KQ, maybe KJ at least in addition to pocket pairs. When you win the flip, you are in prime position for 1st. When you lose you get 3rd. But, most of the time BB folds and you take the blinds.

ICM says this is a push with any 2 cards, even if BB has loose calling standards. I might fold 23 here, but this is definitely a push with much less than 22 so it is a no-brainer push with 22. If you aren't thinking push here you're giving up a lot of prize money equity and should really re-evaluate your bubble/ITM play.
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  #7  
Old 08-25-2005, 04:03 PM
Vee Quiva Vee Quiva is offline
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Default Re: Pocket 2\'s ITM with even stacks

Just as a way to mix things up, sometimes I will just call the BB and then make the min bet on the flop no matter what comes out. It costs the same as a min raise. Your fold equity is good if your opponent has not hit anything. Granted you are giving him a free shot at hitting something.

I probably raise all in about 80% of the time here and call the other 20%.
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  #8  
Old 08-25-2005, 04:30 PM
AliasMrJones AliasMrJones is offline
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Default Re: Pocket 2\'s ITM with even stacks

[ QUOTE ]
Just as a way to mix things up, sometimes I will just call the BB and then make the min bet on the flop no matter what comes out. It costs the same as a min raise. Your fold equity is good if your opponent has not hit anything. Granted you are giving him a free shot at hitting something.

I probably raise all in about 80% of the time here and call the other 20%.

[/ QUOTE ]

And after you complete in the SB and the BB pushes (as I will often do with just about anything if the SB just completes) are you going to fold? You're really giving up way too much equity. This is exactly the stage of an STT where the most prize money is won and lost. You have to push here if you want to maximize your ROI. This one just isn't close.
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  #9  
Old 08-25-2005, 04:38 PM
flyingmoose flyingmoose is offline
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Default Re: Pocket 2\'s ITM with even stacks

Dude, it's a 22. Your opponent is not thinking in as linear a pattern as we do, and he will not just push over the top or fold. If you min-raise he'll probably flat call. Now you're playing an underpair out of position.

PPPPOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSSSSSHHHHH
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  #10  
Old 08-25-2005, 04:39 PM
rvg72 rvg72 is offline
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Default Re: Pocket 2\'s ITM with even stacks

[ QUOTE ]
If you push, You will get calls here with AK-T, KQ, maybe KJ at least in addition to pocket pairs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah - that was the range I put this guy on

[ QUOTE ]
ICM says this is a push with any 2 cards, even if BB has loose calling standards

[/ QUOTE ]

Well this is my point - ICM says that pushing is better than folding here with any 2. My deeper question is what about calling? What about min raising? What about 3x raising? These all have +/- $ev depending on cirumstances. If I can steal the blinds 80% of the time with a 3x raise and cut my chance of busting out very significantly then it is likely a better play. Once you determine the % chance he folds, the % chance he reraises all-in and you fold and the % chance he calls then comparisons agaisnt pushing and foldnig become possible. Maybe the answer is still push but this is what I am wondering and I suspect the answer might not be so obvious.

[ QUOTE ]
If you aren't thinking push here you're giving up a lot of prize money equity and should really re-evaluate your bubble/ITM play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well that's the thing - I always think push here. This hand got me thinking about things besides push or fold.

Thanks for the comments,

rvg
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