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  #11  
Old 07-18-2005, 05:10 AM
2callzU 2callzU is offline
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Default Re: Help w/Late gameplay in 22\'s

[ QUOTE ]
A8 is not just a favorite over two random cards, it is a signifigant favorite.

And you really can't fold ITM here. Short stack is going to be doubling up a lot of the time, or picking up some pots, so you have little hope of trying to fold ITM, and passing up a spot like this is like folding AK to a all-in raise. Simply can't do it if you want to make money over the long term in this spot.

[/ QUOTE ] Since when is five people left considered ITM? Ok I know what you are saying so let me be as fair as my ego will let me be. Maybe it's not such a bad push with A8 in this spot. Ok. Now let me say something else. One of the reasons why Phil Helmuth is one of the greatest Tournament players ever is because of his ablility to lay down big hands. Ok. If you can't ever lay down AK QQ or whatever it may be, preflop, than I don't see how your ROI or ITM can ever really improve. Not only will never folding with these types of hands make bad beats occur more often than they should, but it also can't really help with your game mentally if you go on a downswing where you keep losing with said hands.
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  #12  
Old 07-18-2005, 05:20 AM
lastchance lastchance is offline
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Default Re: Help w/Late gameplay in 22\'s

You laydown big hands when ICM tells you to. You laydown big hands when your opponent tells you they have you beat.

In this situation, you know the exact opposite. You know here that A8 is a favorite. You know that if A8 is this is a very +Chip EV move, and considerinnot a favorite, you're getting loads of FE. You know that you can take the hit to your stack at this point, it's almost always definitely +$EV.
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  #13  
Old 07-18-2005, 05:21 AM
Iron Tigran Iron Tigran is offline
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Default Re: Help w/Late gameplay in 22\'s

[ QUOTE ]
Ok. Now let me say something else. One of the reasons why Phil Helmuth is one of the greatest Tournament players ever is because of his ablility to lay down big hands. Ok. If you can't ever lay down AK QQ or whatever it may be, preflop, than I don't see how your ROI or ITM can ever really improve. Not only will never folding with these types of hands make bad beats occur more often than they should, but it also can't really help with your game mentally if you go on a downswing where you keep losing with said hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hellmuth is a great tourney HE player, no doubt. But so are Ivey, Hansen, D. Brunson and Raymer, and they have active/aggressive styles. What have we proved by mentioning great players and whether they are more aggressive, or more prone to wait for a long time, passing up small edges, looking for a hand to get it all in as a big favorite?

edited cos I misread AK as AA and yammered on about how those rare satellite type situations are rarely relevent.
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  #14  
Old 07-18-2005, 05:23 AM
Taraz Taraz is offline
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Default Re: Help w/Late gameplay in 22\'s

Another poster to add to the ignore list . . .
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  #15  
Old 07-18-2005, 05:27 AM
2callzU 2callzU is offline
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Default Re: Help w/Late gameplay in 22\'s

[ QUOTE ]
You laydown big hands when ICM tells you to. You laydown big hands when your opponent tells you they have you beat.

In this situation, you know the exact opposite. You know here that A8 is a favorite. You know that if A8 is this is a very +Chip EV move, and considerinnot a favorite, you're getting loads of FE. You know that you can take the hit to your stack at this point, it's almost always definitely +$EV.

[/ QUOTE ] LMAO! This is a joke! It has to be! You make all of your moves based on ICM?!! Haha! You are telling me that you make no moves based on instincts, reads, betting patterns, any of these things? You really are a robot aren't you. When is the last time ICM won the WSOP? You are funny to me. Not saying you aren't good or anything...but in order to get better you have to look beyond just what ICM tells you to do. Otherwise you will remain the same player forever.
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  #16  
Old 07-18-2005, 05:29 AM
viennagreen viennagreen is offline
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Default Re: Help w/Late gameplay in 22\'s

deep stack poker is much different from the specialized poker we play in SNGs

AND-- bad beats always happen just as often as they should...
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  #17  
Old 07-18-2005, 05:48 AM
2callzU 2callzU is offline
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Default Re: Help w/Late gameplay in 22\'s

[ QUOTE ]
deep stack poker is much different from the specialized poker we play in SNGs

AND-- bad beats always happen just as often as they should...

[/ QUOTE ] But do you not understand the concept of avoiding a bad beat. I dont' think any of you do. It is possible..you know..to avoid a bad beat. And there are...you know....ways to lay down a good hand. When is the last time any of you made a fold you were proud of?
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  #18  
Old 07-18-2005, 05:50 AM
HesseJam HesseJam is offline
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Default Re: Help w/Late gameplay in 22\'s

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You laydown big hands when ICM tells you to. You laydown big hands when your opponent tells you they have you beat.

In this situation, you know the exact opposite. You know here that A8 is a favorite. You know that if A8 is this is a very +Chip EV move, and considerinnot a favorite, you're getting loads of FE. You know that you can take the hit to your stack at this point, it's almost always definitely +$EV.

[/ QUOTE ] LMAO! This is a joke! It has to be! You make all of your moves based on ICM?!! Haha! You are telling me that you make no moves based on instincts, reads, betting patterns, any of these things? You really are a robot aren't you. When is the last time ICM won the WSOP? You are funny to me. Not saying you aren't good or anything...but in order to get better you have to look beyond just what ICM tells you to do. Otherwise you will remain the same player forever.

[/ QUOTE ]

Congratulations! You have officially achieved troll status!
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  #19  
Old 07-18-2005, 06:02 AM
emptypockets emptypockets is offline
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Default Re: Help w/Late gameplay in 22\'s

So please enlighten us all how you would play this specific hand, and by all means, how you play the bubble in general.
And try not to be so aggressive, it doesn´t help anyone imo.
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  #20  
Old 07-18-2005, 06:06 AM
SammyKid11 SammyKid11 is offline
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 401
Default Re: Help w/Late gameplay in 22\'s

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
deep stack poker is much different from the specialized poker we play in SNGs

AND-- bad beats always happen just as often as they should...

[/ QUOTE ] But do you not understand the concept of avoiding a bad beat. I dont' think any of you do. It is possible..you know..to avoid a bad beat. And there are...you know....ways to lay down a good hand. When is the last time any of you made a fold you were proud of?

[/ QUOTE ]

At the 22's getting fancy is one of the things that can kill you. There are a lot of people here that are making very good livings playing "like robots" -- and it doesn't matter that they play like robots. Here are the reasons why:

1) Playing SnG's for a living is a matter of vast quantity. You follow ICM because it's far more precise than your instincts or what you think you've learned about a specific player over the course of 50 hands. You follow ICM because it's what will make the most consistent money over the LONG HAUL. Keep making your "good folds" that go against the math -- after 100,000 tournaments you'll have gone broke ten times over (or at the very least failed to make nearly as much money as you could have).

2) The reason guys like Hellmuth make the "big laydowns" is because they a) aren't playing 22 SnG's at Party Poker and b) are playing against much tougher, craftier opponents and c) are playing deep stack multi-table tourneys. You sound very much like you're generating your playing strategy from Norman Chad broadcasts.

3) Another reason you MIGHT make weird plays on the WPT is because players will notice if you play the same way and will exploit your tendencies. That is simply not the case for 99% of people playing 22's on Party. The value laying something like this down might have is simply not there.

You can continue to think what you like, obviously...but this is a clear push in this situation. There are times when there's more than one right answer and healthy debate is called for (not that you've given any game-specific reasons why you think this is a fold). There are other times where the answer is quite clear. If you can recognize the clear times and then act accordingly, you can do quite well. Best of luck.
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