KK hand...part one

[Noo Yawk]

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I don't subscribe to the I'll go broke preflop if I have KK and someone else happens to have AA line. In this case I wasn't worried about villain, but more one of the callers - I flat call in position w/ AA often.

To me, pushing here just seems counter productive - You're only getting called by AA. If you put in a solid raise without pushing, you may still get a call from AK or QQ and have a chance to get the rest of their money on the flop.

But what do I know...

[/ QUOTE ]

I completely agree with LA here, and this was my thought process.

[gcoutu]

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I raised $300 to $325 all day. All fold to late postion who poneders and calls. I really wanted to take it down there and felt this was a sufficent size raise to do it.

I want to add that any player in this hand would come over the top with Aces. The original raiser likes to re-raise all types of hands and the callers were most likely calling because of the odds. The player that called me is a loose gambler and not at all a sophisticated player. His range of hands here would be any big suited Ace or any pair 8's and up.
Stack sizes are about equal. I have $475 left and he has about $450.

Given the description of the situation, the flop comes:

2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]-7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]-10 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I push. Anyone play it differently?

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Not no, but Hell no. Hope it worked out for you.

[Noo Yawk]

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I like this sort of question. It's fairly elementary, I mean, it's obvious you have to raise, but it can offer great "pseudo experience" for people learning.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was a staunch limit player that decided to jump into NL a couple of times per week because all the new (read: bad) players seem to be jumping into these medium stakes NL games. I keep having to remind myself that I'm learning a new game with players that are bad enough to make it extremely profitable. Sometimes these conditions make it easy to overlook the routine thought process's that lend themselves to a strong foundation. I'll get off the soap box now. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[lapoker17]

Um...You said: "so you are getting correct odds to push no matter what"

[PokerSlut]

Yes. If you are reraised, you are getting correct odds to push the rest of your chips in.

[riverboatking]

[ QUOTE ]
I want to add that any player in this hand would come over the top with Aces. The original raiser likes to re-raise all types of hands and the callers were most likely calling because of the odds. The player that called me is a loose gambler and not at all a sophisticated player. His range of hands here would be any big suited Ace or any pair 8's and up.
Stack sizes are about equal. I have $475 left and he has about $450.

Given the description of the situation, the flop comes:

2 -7 -10

I push. Anyone play it differently?

[/ QUOTE ]

most of the time i play it exactly like you........however every once in awhile when i'm playing against the type of opponent you describe (loose gambler) i might check it to him as this will often induce him to push thinking i might have AK and will fold.

i know i know you give him the oppertunity to outdraw you, but i think more often then not these types of players will push it if you check to them, however they will fold most of there hands if you push.

lets think of the possible hands your opponent could have, obviously he could have any pocket pair, so if you check there is a good chance he will push.

he could also have a big ace, and if he does check behind that could be bad, however he is only drawing to three outs (unless of course he has the Ax of clubs, in which case he will most likely push it anyway being the loose gambler).

all that being said i think the pot is plenty big and there is no point in being greedy, so there is no way that pushing here is a bad play........just thought i'd mention the possiblity of checking it to him one time, and again i'd only do this vs. the exact type of player you describe.

[creedofhubris]

I agree with LA Poker here.

You can't play a big pot with 4 people out of position, and you can't move in preflop unless you are certain that people will call you with worse hands. So the raise to 300-400, move in on an aceless flop, is the proper choice.

[Noo Yawk]

He called my all in and showed pocket Q's. Unfortunately for me the turn brought a Q. At least my read was right.

The good news is I know my frame of mind is right for this game, because it didn't really bother me. Well not that much anyway [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]!

Thanks for all the responses.

[Noo Yawk]

Hi Riverboat,

This opponent was not the type to bet. He just called and hoped to hit. If I gave him a free pass at an Ace or a backdoor flush or some two out set, and lose because I got cute in a big pot, well, I'd probably have to light myself on fire! [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[Utah]

I dont see why a push on the flop isnt the correct play here. The math/game theory analysis is quite complex and it is why beyond my abilities. However, lets look at a simple case.

Lets say there is one player with QQ. He will call the 300 but fold the allin bet.

So, with the 300 bet, the EV is 900*7/8 - 300 for around 485. Minus, 1/8*700 for 85. Total EV is thus 400. Since the allin fold is obviously plus $300 EV then the raise 300 raise is +100 over the allin bet.

However, if the player will call allin with QQ then the equation tilts in favor of pushing. Also, my analysis ignores what happens when an A falls and what happens if he has A,K instead of Q,Q.

Because you are dealing with many players on a range of hands, with a range of ways they will react to bets, with a range of interactions between how players will react to previous action, with a range of how actions based on a range of flops there is almost no way to do the math.

However, if I had to guess I would lean towards saying that the math would say pushing on the flop is the correct action against loose players.