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  #41  
Old 12-28-2005, 02:24 PM
hmkpoker hmkpoker is offline
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Default Re: Logic in an atheistic worldview

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Change my beliefs? Yes. Be happy about it? If it's the Christian God, no. I loathe going to church and I've grown rather fond of certain sins. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

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Eh, if Heaven's real it seems like a small price to pay.
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  #42  
Old 12-28-2005, 02:41 PM
Trantor Trantor is offline
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Default Re: Logic in an atheistic worldview

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Hi,
I'm not an atheist, but axioms are so basic and obvious that they are self-evident. Thus, they require no proof. As for where an atheist believes these axioms come from... they simply exist due to the necessity that our reality is logical. i.e. our universe has always existed or came into existence by random occurence, and since our universe is based on logic, basic axioms must hold.

I'm not sure this is the best explanation, but basically I am saying that because our universe is logical by its very nature, then the basic axioms which follow naturally from logic have "existed" since the inception of the universe.

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I beg to differ. No axioms are self evident. They are assumptions that are then the basis of logical deductions in the particular logic scheme to which tghe axioms are applied.

But I'm no logician. Can you give me an example of self evidently true axiom set?
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  #43  
Old 12-28-2005, 03:13 PM
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Default Re: Logic in an atheistic worldview

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If you want an exercise in futility try getting them to admit the universe is irrational. Don't bother pointing out how many atheist philosophers have said so.

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OK, I'll bite. In what sense is the universe "irrational"

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Oh no.. not again.

Here is where this first started (I think):
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...709#Post3664174

Feel free to read the rest of that thread, but here was the summary I posted in there ("you" = "NotReady"):

1) By "rational", you mean "created by an intelligent designer for a purpose".
2) You say the universe is "rational", and the non-theist says it's "irrational"
-- by your definition, this is true
3) You say "that on this presupposition (that the universe is "irrational") everything is irrational, including logic".
4) I don't think a chair is "irrational", because a human (an intelligent designer) created it for a purpose.
5) You must either have a different definition for "rational" that has yet to be explained, or not think a human is an "intelligent designer" ... or not really believe your previous statement about everything being irrational to a non-theist.

(NotReady never replied to this.)
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  #44  
Old 12-28-2005, 04:32 PM
Lestat Lestat is offline
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Default Re: Logic in an atheistic worldview

I'm not looking for a reaction. I'm simply responding to the incredulity of this OP and others who can't understand how an atheist gets through life without a belief in god.

I'm not sure why it's so difficult to understand how someone can live a fulfilled life without believing in something he doesn't think exists. For instance, I can get through life just fine without a belief in astrology and I'm sure you can too.

Theists on the other hand, seem to need their beliefs as a guiding force when it comes to the basics of life, morality, choosing right from wrong, reconciling death, and their very basis for living in general. So why wouldn't they have a harder time with being proved wrong?

An atheist would simply say, "Whoa! There really IS a God. I guess I was wrong. I hope it's not too late to change my ways.". Whereas, if God were disproved, a theist's entire world would be turned upside down. His very reason for existence, morality, the life, the universe, and everything would in one fell swoop become null and void. How could he possibly cope?
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  #45  
Old 12-28-2005, 05:40 PM
David Sklansky David Sklansky is offline
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Default Re: Logic in an atheistic worldview

"But the bigger picture is that existentialism is itself the logical outworking of a worldview that rejects God, which is all non-theistic worldviews. If man is the highest rational being then"

Why does rejecting God imply that man is the highest rational being?
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  #46  
Old 12-28-2005, 05:44 PM
NotReady NotReady is offline
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Default Re: Logic in an atheistic worldview

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Why does rejecting God imply that man is the highest rational being?


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By definition God is the Absolute rational being. Even if there's a being higher than man but not Absolute, the problem of ultimate irrationality remains.
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  #47  
Old 12-28-2005, 06:19 PM
OtisTheMarsupial OtisTheMarsupial is offline
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Default Re: Logic in an atheistic worldview

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You do see the contradiction in this, right?


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Yes. That's part of my point. Logic doesn't allow contradiction, yet it exists. True dilemmas exist.

Logic is a manmade utility. It is useful, but may not be the Truth. It may only exist in the human mind, not elsewhere in nature.
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  #48  
Old 12-28-2005, 06:40 PM
Bork Bork is offline
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Default Re: Logic in an atheistic worldview

I dont think genuine logical contradictions exist as true statements, only a some apparent ones.

Logic only exists in the human mind? No. Firstly dogs use logic without being taught by people. Secondly do you really doubt that if you know, if P then Q, and P, then you can justifiably infer knowledge of Q. It cannot be wrong, it is true in all possible worlds, including ones without humans. Its analagous to 2+2=4 do you believe this is also a manmade thing that isn't true in nature?
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  #49  
Old 12-28-2005, 07:29 PM
Piers Piers is offline
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Default Re: Logic in an atheistic worldview

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laws of logic are self-evident

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I would say that they are a useful tool.

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axiomatic and cannot be proven

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Axioms are always provable by definition. Your getting your levels confused.

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How does the atheist account for the acceptance and validity of the laws of logic?

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Models that are based on logic are typically more applicable to real world situations than ones that are not.

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Is it blind faith

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Its pragmatism. Just a case of using what has been shown to work.
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