Crazy Pineapple 8b discards

[Yads]

I tried playing a bit of micro limit Pineapple hi/low on UB and I'm really confused on how to discard in this game. Let's say you raise PF with AQ2 rainbow (is this even a good play?) flop comes Q46 two of one suit. Let's say you bet and get called in 3 places. Do you dump the 2 and go for high? Dump the Q and go for low? what if your Q2 is suited and you flop a 4 flush with the same board?

[MarkGritter]

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I tried playing a bit of micro limit Pineapple hi/low on UB and I'm really confused on how to discard in this game. Let's say you raise PF with AQ2 rainbow (is this even a good play?) flop comes Q46 two of one suit. Let's say you bet and get called in 3 places. Do you dump the 2 and go for high? Dump the Q and go for low? what if your Q2 is suited and you flop a 4 flush with the same board?

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I would keep QA; TPTK is still enough to win many hands (although two pair and sets are a little more frequent, of course.) But the big advantage of keeping QA is that you can back into a low as well and get 3/4, or all, of the pot (or escape for the low half vs. a raggedy two pair.) You need to be prepared to dump it if the turn action heats up, though.

Keeping A2 isn't as appealing because you are really only playing for half the pot, and the low might not come in, or a two or ace might counterfeit your low. One of your opponents could have a holding like 35; if an ace or a two lands on the turn you are potentially in bad shape.

If you have a four-flush with Q2, by all means keep it. Top pair + flush draw is a monster, and again you may back into a low. Particularly if an A comes to counterfeit others' holdings--- the ace of your suit would be best, try to draw that. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

If the flop is raised, you may want to consider going low instead as this often indicates two pair or better. OTOH, it could be another A2 with a flush draw, and you are on your way to being quartered; try to keep all three players in the pot. Or it could be a donk with a worse kicker.

In general you want to be on your strongest draw in a multi-way pot--- A hand with potential to scoop, or a virtual lock on half the pot. TPTK isn't great but it has some scoop potential if there is not a low yet. Nut low draws are OK if they have some high backup or the pot is large or multiway. Made lows with high potential are best.

The games, in my limited experience, seem to be loose/passive, so you could either be up against a two pair or a Q with worse kicker who will call you all the way. Reading the opponents is often a waste of time, I can't count how many times I thought I was splitting the pot and nobody turned out to have a low after all.

Read this if you have not already, it talks some more about the risks of TP hands:
http://www.everythingsbusted.com/p0c...Pineapple.html

[Buzz]

Hi Mark - Nice post.

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I would keep QA;

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I'd keep A2.

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TPTK is still enough to win many hands

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True, but you can't ever feel good about TPTK in crazy pineapple.

Why not?

Because flopping two pair is common and flopping a set is not rare. And you also could be up against an over-pair of aces or kings. A lot of stuff that's commonly out there is better than TPTK.

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But the big advantage of keeping QA is that you can back into a low

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Keeping AQ and discarding the deuce, you'll back into a low 220/1035, or about one time out of five. Trouble is, it's a non-nut low and easily tied by an opponent who also has an ace, so that you shouldn't expect to win with it even the one time out of five you make it.

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Keeping A2 ..... you are really only playing for half the pot, and the low might not come in, or a two or ace might counterfeit your low. One of your opponents could have a holding like 35; if an ace or a two lands on the turn you are potentially in bad shape.

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That's all true.

Keep the A2, and you'll make the nut low
without getting counterfeited about 504/1035 or about half the time. With the nut low, you can drive the betting and might end up scooping with everybody getting out of your way.

And there's a remote chance your ace will hold up for high or a pair of aces will win for high if your ace gets counterfeited. (Pretty far fetched, I'll agree, but perhaps no more so than the bare ace winning for low).

You do get counterfeited a lot in C.P.-8 - a lot more than in Omaha-8, where you like to have and often can have a back-up for your nut low draw. But even so, I think the nut low draw is a better choice than TPTK. (I'd keep a set, or top two pair and dump the nut low draw, but TPTK simply doesn't have enough oomph).

I agree that Gerrod's tongue in cheek r.g.p. post is an excellent reference!

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[Buzz]

Hi Yads - I responded to Mark with regard to one of your questions. I'll take a shot at a couple of others here.

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Let's say you raise PF with AQ2 rainbow (is this even a good play?)

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I don't know.

I don't think of AQ2 rainbow as a particularly good hand in this game. I might or might not raise with it. (I'd probably limp with it).

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what if your Q2 is suited and you flop a 4 flush with the same board?

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Let's make your hand
A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and the flop 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

You can see immediately how much stronger your hand would be if your ace was suited rather than your queen. A good draw here would be for the nut low and also the nut flush. Alas, that's not the case.

And since it isn't the case, you don't have a great fit with this flop. (The name of the game here is "scoop" just like it is in Omaha-8, or any other high/low split game. However, if there are enough opponents who will call a post-flop bet, I think you're good enough to continue.

But how to continue? Do we draw, trying to hit one of sixteen cards, for the nut low or do we draw, trying to hit one of nine cards, for the third nut flush? Well... it isn't just nine cards, because we also have TPTK. 2 queens, 2 non-club aces..... Okay, do we draw trying to hit one of thirteen cards for a non-nut high?

I like aces in this game, and I hate to give them up. I'd give up the ace after this flop if I held two queens along with the ace - but that's not the case here.

Interesting. Since you don't have to correct for getting counterfeited, I think there are actually more two-card combinations that get you a club flush, or two pair or better than make you the nut low. After a cursory look, I think it's close. (But you still have to keep in mind that two running clubs opens the door for anyone with a bare ace or king of clubs and a board pair could be a disaster if you do make the club flush).
Even if you do make the club flush, you're vulnerable to a better flush or, if the board pairs, a full house.

The foregoing considered, I prefer drawing for the nut low rather than the club flush. Therefore I'd keep the ace and the deuce.

I think anyone who chooses to keep the queen and the deuce is giving more value to top-pair-on-the-flop than I would.

Just my opinion.

Buzz