JT95ds hand (Poll)

[joewatch]

$100 PL Omaha - 9 handed

Hero BB ( $121.05 )
Villain1 EP2 ( $98.45 )

Villain2 MP3 ( $108.35 )

** Dealing down cards **
Dealt Hero [ 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ]
EP1 calls [$1, Villain1 calls [$1], 2 folds, Villain2 calls [$1], folded to SB, SB calls [$0.50], Hero checks.

** Dealing Flop ** ($5) [ 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ]

[Filip]

2 for check-fold? Care to explain?

I voted for check-raise.

[IronDragon1]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In Antwort auf:</font><hr />
$100 PL Omaha - 9 handed

Hero BB ( $121.05 )
Villain1 EP2 ( $98.45 )

Villain2 MP3 ( $108.35 )

** Dealing down cards **
Dealt Hero [ 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ]
EP1 calls [$1, Villain1 calls [$1], 2 folds, Villain2 calls [$1], folded to SB, SB calls [$0.50], Hero checks.

** Dealing Flop ** ($5) [ 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm...did the small blind open fold or someting because I think what we do is certainly partially contingent on what he does.

That being said, assuming SB just checks I go for check/call

[joewatch]

Yes, SB checks.

[PLOlover]

Whatever you do , you do trying to get allin on the flop, right?

I would lead and hope to reraise.

[carlo]

It's really hard to say what I'd do--as usual the tenor of the table and individual players would be important.

Analyzing the hand it looks like any Ace will give the nut straight except the A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] for then you are still faced with a K :spade flush. Also K,Q will pair the board thus making your hand extremely tenuous. A 10 or J will give the low straight but you'll be sucking on the high end. Do you really want a 10 or J on the turn? It appears the only clean outs you have are the 3 9's.

If this was suposed to be easy I don't find it so and also your position at the front of the pack makes it difficult. I'd say if everyone bets and calls minimal I'd take another card. If any aggression is shown especially from 2 players, I'd fold. As usual, it depends. Gambol,of course is always possible.

regards,
carlo

[gmunny]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
$100 PL Omaha - 9 handed

Hero BB ( $121.05 )
Villain1 EP2 ( $98.45 )

Villain2 MP3 ( $108.35 )

** Dealing down cards **
Dealt Hero [ 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ]
EP1 calls [$1, Villain1 calls [$1], 2 folds, Villain2 calls [$1], folded to SB, SB calls [$0.50], Hero checks.

** Dealing Flop ** ($5) [ 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm...did the small blind open fold or someting because I think what we do is certainly partially contingent on what he does.

That being said, assuming SB just checks I go for check/call

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I would do the same. This is a hand that I would want to keep the pot small and get free draws. Here is my thinking, though I am new to PLO so if I am wrong, flame away.

There are only 3 real outs (any nine) to the nuts and 2 of those outs would be vunerable to the nut flush and 2nd flush, of course if you hit the 9 of spades your really want the nut flush to be out there. If a Ten or a Jack hit you may be only 2nd best (as many folks play with Ace and high cards) and if an Ace hits you may have a split.

The problem I see with this hand is the position, with 2 folks behind and the SB. If you bet, EP2 calls, MP3 raises pot, SB folds what would you do? if MP3 has a set of Kings or Queens with no flush/straight draws you can call cause your straigt or flush will win, but what if you call and EP2 calls? EP2 could have a nut flush and straight draw and you would be drawing for the 9 of spades.

I would probably lead out if only one player was behind me and the SB limped. If I had set of Kings or Queens or at least outs to the Ace high flush I would probably lead out. Anyways, that's my line of thinking, though I haven't played enough hands to see if I am actually thinking correctly. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]
G$
EDIT* Sorry - I just saw Carol's post above, who must have posted it while I was drafting my post. At least I'm not the only one thinking along these lines !

[n1bd]

[ QUOTE ]
Whatever you do , you do trying to get allin on the flop, right?

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, I think you're trying to get all your opponents to fold with maximum profit and minimum risk.

If you get all in on the flop you are either flipping coins with a set or buried under a better draw (A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] is 51%; A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] is 59%; A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] is 85%; A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] is 86%).

If instead you get to the turn with more money to bet, then you find yourself oop in a tricky spot, especially if you hit your draw with a non-nut out. (You only have 6 nut outs on the flop.) Check-raising the flop leaves you with an especially crappy pot size on the turn if your CR is flat called.

Lead, three-bet looks good and avoids tricky situations later, as you're now pot committed. This line seems to maximize fold equity as well as the size of the pot you are stealing, so I vote for it. Unfortunately, this line does give your opponent the leverage of the fourth flop bet all in for like $40-50 more. You are obviously forced to call the final raise, but if you get to this point, you opponent often has a set or stronger draw, so you lose a good fraction of those last 50 bucks.

Another plus for leading, depending on the opponent, is that it might help you define his hand. Maybe he never raises the nut flush draw or always raises a set or top two. Then his reaction to your flop lead makes the turn much easier to play if it brings a spade or a Q or whatever.

If you are in a game of nits where a raise of your flop lead definitively means a monster, then three-betting obviously loses its luster.

Edit: If you get action from more than one opponent, your hand sucks (you are probably up against made hand + better draw) and you should bail or at least play cautiously.

[PLOlover]

I'm absolutely stunned we're a dog against a naked nut flush draw. My play was based on getting it heads up against a set if one is out and forcing out the flush draw.

I still think going for the coin flip vs. set is ok, but really any other flush draw just kills you.

Very interesting post.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1135719
pokenum -o as 2s 3c 4d - js ts 5h 9h - kd kh 2c 2d -- kc qs 8s
Omaha Hi: 666 enumerated boards containing Qs 8s Kc
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As 2s 3c 4d 118 17.72 548 82.28 0 0.00 0.177
Js Ts 9h 5h 233 34.98 433 65.02 0 0.00 0.350
2c Kd 2d Kh 315 47.30 351 52.70 0 0.00 0.473

But as you said, if you're heads up against nut flush draw, especially if it's got something with it, pair or straight outs, then you are a tremendous dog.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1135721
pokenum -o js ts 5h 9h - - kd kh 2c 2d -- kc qs 8s
Omaha Hi: 820 enumerated boards containing Qs 8s Kc
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Js Ts 9h 5h 445 54.27 375 45.73 0 0.00 0.543
2c Kd 2d Kh 375 45.73 445 54.27 0 0.00 0.457

But if you are an optimist then this is what you're hoping for.

The more I study plo, the more complex I realize it is.

i did post check fold.....well you are looking for 3 cards, a 9. you do have plenty of outs to make reasonable hands but none that are worthy of calling a pot bet or making a pot bet unless you are up against a set you will get paid off. if you hit your spade you are in danger of losing a good size pot also you if you hit your non nut straight you are probly going to lose to someone who is playing better cards than you. and if someone is betting the pot more then likely you are beat. i would try to be in the hand for as cheap as possible, and play it very slow unless i hit the golden card.