mistake where?

[mason55]

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Under specific table conditions, all of those plays (especially folding to the raise preflop or leading the flop) could be +EV, but with no other info, this seems like a normal default line.

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Folding to that raise with those stacks preflop is very far from +EV. Not really sure what you think you're talking about.

[mason55]

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Yeah, and this isn't limit. Raises in NL don't usually mean AQ, AJ, KQ or some other hand that Hero might be beating. Does Hero's line mean that he sometimes folds a winner to AK? Of course, but so what?

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Ok, that's 2 terrible posts you've made in this thread.

That is a STANDARD line with AK/AQ/AJ/KQ or any other hand that villain felt like raising for whatever reason. Hell, he could be playing 89s exactly like this. If you put villain on ONLY an overpair you are giving away a LOT of money. As far as you know this is a standard continuation bet.

There is no reason to fold preflop to the raise and there is no reason to not bet out here. If you are raised then you can drop the hand, but to put villain on ONLY an overpair is very very weak.

[Rococo]

I merely meant that I have played on tables where overpairs simply wouldn't pay off sets often enough to make it worth limping low or mid pockets up front. As I said before, Hero's play looked standard to me as a default.

[emil3000]

To me it seems that if overpairs don't pay off sets often enough, then there should be enough bluff equity to make calling worth it. Is this faulty thinking?

[MTBlue]

I think possibly if you felt reraiser was weak you could check raise the flop. He may even laydown the overpair. I've played 20000 hands and I can't remember one time when the checkraiser didn't have a set on a board like this. Don't use the play too often, but I think periodically it works well. NOTE: I play mostly six-handed.

[Rococo]

Why don't you settle down. You obviously misunderstood my previous "terrible" comment because you hadn't read the entire thread. I never recommended folding preflop.

I take it that you have never bought into the "no set, no bet" theory of playing low/mid pockets in a full ring game out of position. Nevertheless, I didn't invent the idea. I don't object to leading or CRing against weak-tight opponents some of the time, but I sure as hell am not doing it most of the time against a wide range of players. That is classic chip spewing.

[Kripke]

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That is a STANDARD line with AK/AQ/AJ/KQ or any other hand that villain felt like raising for whatever reason. Hell, he could be playing 89s exactly like this.

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Of course it is standard line with the hands you list, but it is also the standard line with overpairs. Rococo never said that you should always fold in a situation like this, but merely said that the default line would to be fold. In absense of any reads on the raiser, this seems quite right to me. Are you just routinely going to take shots OOP at a preflop raiser, not giving him credit for a hand?


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If you put villain on ONLY an overpair you are giving away a LOT of money. As far as you know this is a standard continuation bet.

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You might be giving a LOT of money away if you never give PF-raisers credit for a hand, and just take shots OOP. While you may occasionally lay down the best hand here, you also avoid getting yourself into a great deal of trouble because of your positional disadvantage.

However, this does not entail that you should never lead out.


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There is no reason to fold preflop to the raise and there is no reason to not bet out here. If you are raised then you can drop the hand, but to put villain on ONLY an overpair is very very weak.

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There are plenty of reasons; without a read on the raiser (say, knowing that his raising standards from MP/LP are very loose), I see plenty of reasons for folding here. However, nobody said Hero should fold PF.

You think you gain information by leading out, but a flush draw or OESD might very well come over the top of you, and an over pair will probably just flatcall, which leaves you in a somewhat sticky situation on the turn. (Or conversely for both.)

Without a providing some information on the PF-raiser, it is going to be hard to provide anything other than a default line reply.

Although I think there is merit to arguing out that you should occasionally take a shot in spot like this by leading out, I think it is faulty reasoning to argue that there is absolutely no reasons NOT to raise. There are plenty.

[Rococo]

What he said, plus one more thing. When I do take a shot, it isn't going to be on an 8 high flop, where my fold equity likely is very low. If Villain has a pocket pair, it probably is 8s or better, and he may call with overcards as well. In other words, I probably will have to give up on the turn or fire another barrel with nothing.