vulnerable because I fold my AA and KK too easily?

[creedofhubris]

(Crossposted from the NL forum; maybe this post belongs here?)

First, background on me: I'm very tight, and not as aggressive as a lot of other winning players. When I raise preflop, I've got a premium hand. I don't run very many large bluffs. When I go bust, it's set-over-set, or an all-in opponent has outdrawn me.

I also play on a small site with a number of other regulars, and have logged several thousand hands with some of them.

OK. There are several tricky/dangerous players in my game who a) know me very well and b) like to see a flop with speculative hands for a decent-sized raise. (NL -- my usual raise is 5x bb, 1/20 of the buyin.)

Since they know my raising standards and my betting, they know when I'm very likely to be holding a big pair. They then call with suited connectors and baby pairs to crack my big pair. I don't really mind this since I am ok with laying down hands to them.

What I'm worried about is them calling just to put a move on me postflop, since I am capable of these laydowns.

I should also point out that it's really only three or four loose aggressive tricky regular winners that I'm worried about: the ones who call with the right sorts of hands to beat big pairs, and whose raises either mean that they have nothing, or that I'm crushed. I don't want them routinely outplaying me with any two cards.

Here's a laydown hand, to give you a sense of what these guys like to call me with/when I can find the fold.

I'm in MP with KK. Chump ($100) raises to $15, I ($500) minraise to $30 (intending to isolate and get chump's stack, hoping chump will move in preflop), tricky guy ($900) on the button calls, chump just calls. Flop is

457r

Chump checks, I bet $65 to put chump all-in, tricky guy raises to $200, chump calls, I fold. Tricky guy shows down 86 soooted for the flopped straight.

This seemed to me like a fairly routine fold because of the protected pot, but if I routinely make these laydowns, then these guys are going to repeatedly take shots at me with nothing, right?

I recently had this happen, which is why I'm thinking about it: I raised a bunch of limpers from the blinds with AA (telegraphing big pair) then bet the pot on a baby flop, got minraised, and then folded to a turn overbet, only to be shown an unimproved 44.

What's the best solution to this dilemma? Some things I'm considering:

1) Check a bunch of flops with aces/kings, lose a smaller pot if their crap hits, encourage them to bluff.
2) Randomly call down the tricky dudes when they represent better-than-big-pair.
3) Randomly reraise all-in with just a pair or AK that misses.
4) Start occasionally raising from EP and MP with medium pairs, small suited connectors or one-gappers (86s!) so maybe I'll catch them with an unexpected monster myself.
5) Change nicknames.
6) Start calling all of their preflop raises, limp/reraise them preflop with garbage, play back at them with nothing until they stay out of my pots. (This seems petty and unlikely to work, but it would be satisfying if it did.)

What do you other tightwads/people who play the same opponents regularly recommend?

[edge]

Do you ever limp in with small pairs and suited connectors in position? Try limping with a big pair to mix things up, and maybe raise a bunch of limpers from the button with something like 87s or 88.

[grandgnu]

You're in the pot with A/A and the flop is 4/5/7 and someone raises you and you run away? Alright, granted the idiot did stick around with 6/8 and got lucky.

But still, you're WAY too conservative and being pushed around. At least you're aware of your problem. But you have to be willing to take risks and mix it up. The worst thing you can do is be a predictable player.

[ACW]

And you're not just losing out to the players who get tricky with you. Anyone who just folds whenever you raise has a big edge on you if you always raise with AA-QQ and never raise with anything else.

[creedofhubris]

Not talking about limping; talking about raised pots.

Sure, I limp with a lot of stuff.

[creedofhubris]

He's not an idiot, that's the problem.

I can't routinely call him down, because I will lose a lot of money if I do that.

[creedofhubris]

In late position, I raise with a lot of broadway cards and pairs. KJs, pairs down to 55 if I'm feeling frisky and it's limped to me.

In early or middle position, pfr is almost always JJ-AA or AK. That's where I guess I need to throw in the 87s if I'm going to do it.

Preflop reraise is almost always QQ-AA. But really, that's true of anyone at our game.

The bad players will keep calling me preflop with their KT and A9s no matter what I raise; it's the good players I'm worried about.

[imperious]

Hi Creed,

you could try something that you only need to do once a session, check raise the flop on a stone bluff.
Make your usual raise of 5xBB with junk in EP - because it's not going to go to a showdown, pick any hand.
There usually comes a point where I haven't picked up a hand for a while and it just "feels" right to raise EP. I can't really explain, maybe when the good players have just played a few pots recently and now it "feels" like your turn [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
You will probably get at least one caller by the sound of it, so when the flop comes (2 suited with a high card on average) think for a little bit and check.
If they play as you say, I would expect to lead out on you expecting you to fold, so c/r the size of the pot.

When they fold, show them the junk.
If you get no callers PF, then don't - if you pick up a ahnd shortly after you're more likely to get called second time after raising twice in one orbit.

Obviously, this could have short term impact on you roll if they call or if they hit the flop etc but at least you've done something they wouldn't normally expect of you. By the sound of it you would almost always lead out on a J45r flop with QQ for example.
Hopefully you will see the benefit of the move in future hands with the same players.

Just an idea, maybe you do this anyway I don't know but making a move out of line once on a while might help you get called in a big pot when you do it to them again with AA 2 hours later.

[rdu $teve]

I have the same problem in my NL home games, lots of tricky players holding on to trash. Last night my AA was cracked by 95s, KK by 78o; this was 1/2 NL. The tricky players call raises with alot of trashy hands, based on implied odds and the potential of bluffing scare cards. There really is no set method that you can use to play against them, you've gotta keep your game changing.

#2-4 are all a required play in your game
#5 might help if your name is something like "Mr Gibralter"
#6 is for use in multiway pots, when in position (or closing the action) and seeing a relatively cheap flop

[senjitsu]

You have the classic problem that many too-tight players have when they play with regular opponents who know them well.

You only routinely raise with preium hands. So after the flop, you're only going to get action when your over-pair/set is beaten.

The best piece of advice I can give you is to find a better game or a bigger site where you can play more anonymously. Its pretty obvious that your opponents have your number. Think about it for a moment. In the scenarios you're talking about, your oppponent almost cwertainly has a good idea on what hand you have. You, on the other hand, have no idea what his holding is. This is a fundamental and overwhelming disadvantage, and one that you cannot overcome even if you play every hand perfectly.

In terms of advice for beating this game, I would say you need to open up your raising requirements, especially from later position... maybe raise with suited boradway cards, and occassionally with 0 and one gap 7-J high suited connectors. This might not fit your tight style of play well, but unless you do it, you're accepting a huge and probably insurmountable disadvantage.


[ QUOTE ]
(Crossposted from the NL forum; maybe this post belongs here?)

First, background on me: I'm very tight, and not as aggressive as a lot of other winning players. When I raise preflop, I've got a premium hand. I don't run very many large bluffs. When I go bust, it's set-over-set, or an all-in opponent has outdrawn me.

I also play on a small site with a number of other regulars, and have logged several thousand hands with some of them.

OK. There are several tricky/dangerous players in my game who a) know me very well and b) like to see a flop with speculative hands for a decent-sized raise. (NL -- my usual raise is 5x bb, 1/20 of the buyin.)

Since they know my raising standards and my betting, they know when I'm very likely to be holding a big pair. They then call with suited connectors and baby pairs to crack my big pair. I don't really mind this since I am ok with laying down hands to them.

What I'm worried about is them calling just to put a move on me postflop, since I am capable of these laydowns.

I should also point out that it's really only three or four loose aggressive tricky regular winners that I'm worried about: the ones who call with the right sorts of hands to beat big pairs, and whose raises either mean that they have nothing, or that I'm crushed. I don't want them routinely outplaying me with any two cards.

Here's a laydown hand, to give you a sense of what these guys like to call me with/when I can find the fold.

I'm in MP with KK. Chump ($100) raises to $15, I ($500) minraise to $30 (intending to isolate and get chump's stack, hoping chump will move in preflop), tricky guy ($900) on the button calls, chump just calls. Flop is

457r

Chump checks, I bet $65 to put chump all-in, tricky guy raises to $200, chump calls, I fold. Tricky guy shows down 86 soooted for the flopped straight.

This seemed to me like a fairly routine fold because of the protected pot, but if I routinely make these laydowns, then these guys are going to repeatedly take shots at me with nothing, right?

I recently had this happen, which is why I'm thinking about it: I raised a bunch of limpers from the blinds with AA (telegraphing big pair) then bet the pot on a baby flop, got minraised, and then folded to a turn overbet, only to be shown an unimproved 44.

What's the best solution to this dilemma? Some things I'm considering:

1) Check a bunch of flops with aces/kings, lose a smaller pot if their crap hits, encourage them to bluff.
2) Randomly call down the tricky dudes when they represent better-than-big-pair.
3) Randomly reraise all-in with just a pair or AK that misses.
4) Start occasionally raising from EP and MP with medium pairs, small suited connectors or one-gappers (86s!) so maybe I'll catch them with an unexpected monster myself.
5) Change nicknames.
6) Start calling all of their preflop raises, limp/reraise them preflop with garbage, play back at them with nothing until they stay out of my pots. (This seems petty and unlikely to work, but it would be satisfying if it did.)

What do you other tightwads/people who play the same opponents regularly recommend?

[/ QUOTE ]