An interesting TT hand.

Entity · #1 07-08-2005, 08:13 PM

So my reads:

UTG hasn't been involved in many pots at all. He's loose, not particularly aggressive or passive (34/9 preflop).

Button has been consistently aggressive with stealraising hands from just about any position but either hasn't had the opportunity or the cards to 3-bet often at all. He's a 34/19/1.6 player, and he's very aggressive postflop, but I've mostly seen hands of his that have been normal raises preflop, not incredibly light 3-bets. That said, he's still capable of a fairly wide range of 3-bets, moreso than an "average" player at least.

SB is loose-aggressive bordering on maniacal at times. 3-bets small pocket pairs from the blinds. Terrible handreader postflop. Calls down when clearly beaten.

I'm mostly interested in my preflop and flop play. I considered capping preflop but I think I prefer calling looking to checkraise a friendly flop and check-call or check-fold flops that look particularly ugly. I'm also interested in my flop call. The basic thought was that I have a 3-straight, giving me some additional outs, and sometimes UTG will have a hand like A9s/AT while Button has an 88/99 that he doesn't bet on the turn, and I can see my way to a showdown thusly.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG raises, 2 folds, Button 3-bets, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, Button bets, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (8 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, Button bets, SB folds, Hero folds, UTG calls.

River: (10 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG checks, Button bets, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 12 BB

Lmn55d · #2 07-08-2005, 08:20 PM

If there's any chance of utg folding preflop, I would cap. Otherwise, the call is fine. I would fold the flop. You easily could be behind button, utg, or the other dude. If you are ahead, theres a good shot at least someone has overcards and a gutshot (10 outs) so you never really that far ahead. if ahead, I doubt your equity is that great. I would fold.

Festis · #3 07-08-2005, 08:29 PM

I'm also just calling this preflop.

I would just fold this flop and be done with it.
Its pretty likely that someone has AK tainting your 2 T outs. And becose of there gutshot they will never fold there hand = that you have to dodge a Ace or a King on the turn or river.
That said, if someone don't have AK it's pretty hard to see that they don't have any Q or J.

ouch I sound really weak tight

clownshoes · #4 07-08-2005, 08:48 PM

Looks good

Entity · #5 07-09-2005, 04:00 AM

Bump. More opinions on the flop?

mungpo · #6 07-09-2005, 04:24 AM

You played this perfectly.

TomBrooks · #7 07-09-2005, 04:36 AM

What Festis sed, except I think it's smart to fold, not weak tight.

naphand · #8 07-09-2005, 05:43 AM

The flop is uncomfortable but you do have some possible additional outs should the Turn produce one of quite a few cards (ideally a 9 or K but 8 or A also give you 4 more outs).

I do not think you are ahead here much, but you could very well be ahead of Button who is auto-betting a lot of the time.

There are 14 SB in the pot when it comes to you, and UTG probably calls as well. 15:1 is just about enough to justify the call to spike a set or pick up a draw.

But the real question is how - good would a T be for you on this board? You face redraws (if River is a K you lose to any Ace and a 9 you lose to any 8 or K), if button has AK then you are screwed for much of you outs. You have some implied odds but there are negative implied odds or fewer outs than you think.

Calling is highly marginal but understandable esp. given your opponents. Given the re-draws and the very high probability you are behind with fewer outs than might appear, I suspect folding the Flop is better than calling.

I doubt the EV difference between a Flop call or fold is worth sweating over.

sthief09 · #9 07-09-2005, 09:40 AM

I think the flop call is dangerous. if you're against AK and a Q, J, or bigger pair, you're drawing to the straight. if you spike a T you're still behind a good percent of the time to a set or AK. it's probably not going to be easy to make a straight considering UTG and/or button probably has a couple of cards you'll need. it's highly unlikely you're ahead and if you are it's going to require the turn getting checked around. not only is this unlikely but if they have 12 outs combined, you're only 50/50 even if you're ahead. if you turn a gutter it's likely that you'll be raised out of the pot and it would be a dubious call even for one bet. I just think this si a really crappy situation. at first glance it seems ok but there are a lot of factors going against you.

Entity · #10 07-09-2005, 01:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think the flop call is dangerous. if you're against AK and a Q, J, or bigger pair, you're drawing to the straight. if you spike a T you're still behind a good percent of the time to a set or AK. it's probably not going to be easy to make a straight considering UTG and/or button probably has a couple of cards you'll need. it's highly unlikely you're ahead and if you are it's going to require the turn getting checked around. not only is this unlikely but if they have 12 outs combined, you're only 50/50 even if you're ahead. if you turn a gutter it's likely that you'll be raised out of the pot and it would be a dubious call even for one bet. I just think this si a really crappy situation. at first glance it seems ok but there are a lot of factors going against you.

[/ QUOTE ]

At what point does this become a must-call rather than a dangerous call? At 14:1 I thought it was interesting -- but given UTG's preflop and postflop tendencies and action in this hand it's not particularly likely that I'm going to pay a lot of bets here, though it is possible.

Rob