Does anybody believe in Physics?

[poker-penguin]

I'll lay 3-1 that Jordan replies to Bodhi's next post. Actual odds are probably 5-1, but I'm a greedy bookie.

Ahem, anyway. Philosophers have made a number of breakthroughs in our understanding of the world. I would almost say that Philosophy has done more for the world than science.

One quick example:

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another..."

Oh but wait, the Declaration of Independance (praticularly the ideas expressed within it, and the Constitution which followed on from it) aren't science and didn't come from science. They must be foolish and bad.

I guess Jordan doesn't like the idea of being created equal, or having inalienable rights or having freedom of speech (no wait, he definately does like that one [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] )

[David Steele]

Godel's actual proof of that must have been a feat though.

He proved that you can not axiomize arithmetic.

The proof was contructive in that he made a system to contruct an example of an arithmetic truth given the axioms but one that is not a consequence of the axioms.

Some of the conjectures about what can and can't be proven and what people and machines can and can't do, based on his proof, are not too solid.

D.

[Jordan Olsommer]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh but wait, the Declaration of Independance (praticularly the ideas expressed within it, and the Constitution which followed on from it) aren't science and didn't come from science. They must be foolish and bad.

I guess Jordan doesn't like the idea of being created equal, or having inalienable rights or having freedom of speech (no wait, he definately does like that one )

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, looks like you're a big fan of philosophy.

Also looks like you're not too big a fan of logic. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Man, your post was a complete trainwreck of fallacies. I don't even know where to begin!

Or I could just ask you to read my other posts, particularly the ones where I said if you believe philosophy is equally as valuable as science, then put your money where your mouth is and head to the philosophy department if your kid breaks his arm or you get cancer. Until then.... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

*edit: oh wow, you're a Marxist too? So I guess the fallacies weren't just reserved for me...I feel so unloved [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[Triumph36]

But this too is fallacious and presents once again the flawed categorization of science and philosophy into two absolutely distinct boxes.

Science did not arise in a vacuum, and the first 'scientists' were very concerned with what have come to be known as solely 'philosophical' questions; there's a reason why the discipline now known as 'science' was once called natural philosophy.

[Jordan Olsommer]

[ QUOTE ]
But this too is fallacious and presents once again the flawed categorization of science and philosophy into two absolutely distinct boxes.

Science did not arise in a vacuum, and the first 'scientists' were very concerned with what have come to be known as solely 'philosophical' questions; there's a reason why the discipline now known as 'science' was once called natural philosophy.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. All I'm trying to say is to keep in mind (like with the Rushdie quote) that science doesn't degenerate into some kind of bongwater-stained dorm-room BS session simply because you can't prove every assumption and axiom, and that anyone who puts the two on equal terms now is just trying to sound clever, because they sure as hell don't believe it (unless they've added an ER entrance to the philosophy department at most universities since I've been to college - I really don't know).

Did I mention how much I love the Sokal affair? It's so delightfully hilarious and enlightening at the same time [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[David Sklansky]

The difference that seperates math, and usually science, from other fields including philosophy, is that practitioners can get it wrong in those other fields and not get caught. Pretty sweet.

[poker-penguin]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow, looks like you're a big fan of philosophy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that supposed to be an insult?

[ QUOTE ]

Also looks like you're not too big a fan of logic. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

That definately was supposed to be an insult. I guess that's what scientists do when they can't prove something :P

[ QUOTE ]
Or I could just ask you to read my other posts, particularly the ones where I said if you believe philosophy is equally as valuable as science, then put your money where your mouth is and head to the philosophy department if your kid breaks his arm or you get cancer. Until then.... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

So the only measure of value in this world is how well something cures cancer? What a sad world you must live in.

[ QUOTE ]
*edit: oh wow, you're a Marxist too? So I guess the fallacies weren't just reserved for me...I feel so unloved [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't really like being any called any sort of "ist", but if quoting the Declaration of Independence makes me a Marxist, then I guess I am.

My point remains that philosphers have done their bit to improve the world. Little ideas like freedom of speech, that human beings shouldn't own other human beings, that the law should apply to everyone, and so on, nothing important really, especally when we compare it to important things like MRI scans!

[Jordan Olsommer]

[ QUOTE ]
Little ideas like freedom of speech, that human beings shouldn't own other human beings

[/ QUOTE ]

Thomas Jefferson: Hey there, how are you?

Slave: Uh...not too bad, I mean the brutal beatings and incessant hard labor kinda suck, but you know, can't complain.

Thomas Jefferson: Well, I had an idea the other day while I was sitting on the porch drinking lemonade. Why do you have to be in shackles, owned by somebody else? Why shouldn't you be free!

Slave: ...I never thought of that! That is an amazing idea - Thank you, good sir!

Thomas Jefferson: Hey, no problem. Now get back to work; my fields aren't going to till themselves, boy.


What a great man [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

*edit: just for the record, I wanted to state (again) that I have no problem with philosophy; in fact, I would personally be pleased to no end if every religious fundamentalist would read Kirkegaard, or if every professor who taught Nietzsche were punished by hard labor for perpetuating myths about what he said - philosophy provides great things to think about, and was obviously incredibly important in the development of civilization; however, what I am saying is that as important as philosophy was, science is much more valuable.

And it seemed from your other posts that you were either a Marxist or rather inclined to that interpretation (usually people have no interest in Marxist interpretations unless they are, well, Marxist, pretty much), not because of your quoting Jefferson.

[poker-penguin]

[ QUOTE ]

what I am saying is that as important as philosophy was, science is much more valuable.


[/ QUOTE ]

I guess that depends on what we consider valuable, and I doubt that's ever going to come to a resolution.


[ QUOTE ]
And it seemed from your other posts that you were either a Marxist or rather inclined to that interpretation (usually people have no interest in Marxist interpretations unless they are, well, Marxist, pretty much), not because of your quoting Jefferson.

[/ QUOTE ]

I enjoy playing with theories, I also enjoy being a Devil's advocate. Unfortunately, this can lead to conversations with me being a bit of a "trainwreck" of ideas.

There's a lot of interesting ideas in the Marxian models of history / society. If nothing else, they are great for getting a rise out of people.

[Jordan Olsommer]

[ QUOTE ]
If nothing else, they are great for getting a rise out of people.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough - far be it for me to deprive a man of his Inalienable Right to Mess With People [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]