Which play is worse?

[Chizoad]

The fold in the BB is worse.

From the other perspective, since it's more fun to think about winning money than losing less of it:

It doesn't matter if you know players have a hand or don't have a hand you're really only going somewhere with 94o if you flop a monster anyway. Might as well take the 19-1 odds rather than the 9-1 odds.

In either case you can trap everyone in between you if you really flop a monster, but the early position vs. the preflop raiser adds the option of attempting to narrow the field with a bet expecting a raise from UTG. Seriously minor consideration though.

[SossMan]

Are you saying that having the button vs. the BB is worth 10sb?

[Doubling12]

I vote for playing from the BB being better (less worser). A raiser and many cold callers is more likely to mean cards >=10 and/or pocket pairs, making the chances for a 94x, 99x, or 44x flop go up. Assuming you get a flop like that, you'd probably hang back and let others bet anyway, so I don't see the button as a big benefit.

PS you must be really good to worry about proper 94o play 9-handed!

[LobstaJohnson]

I'm glad someone commented on that! Cheesecake Orgies ROCK!


...or I guess they do. What are they? They sound good though.

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Senor Choppy]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you saying that having the button vs. the BB is worth 10sb?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm afraid to read Tommy's response.

[Rick Nebiolo]

I think they are both horrible calls (the big blind call is slightly less horrible) but what about 94 suited on the button versus in the big blind in exactly the game Tommy describes?

IMO with 94 suited one situation is an absolutely easy plus EV call (not even close) and the other situation is a a clear fold (but much closer in terms of EV - in other words the negative expectation of the call when you should fold is not as great as the fold when you should call (in absolute value).

My guess is Tommy might think otherwise [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

~ Rick

[M2d]

I'm not advocating doing either, but here's my thought process:

I have 94o in the BB. It's raised UTG. Everyone calls, and I close the action with a call. Now, if I flop big, I can check-raise and trap everyone, since the bet's probably coming from UTG. If I catch a piece (maybe, 9 high flop), and UTG is the type to see the turn no matter what, maybe I can use him to chase everyone away by betting and having him raise me. If I don't catch anything, he bets, and everyone folds, since i'm last to act, I can hem and haw a bit, move for my chips, move back, then muck, making him sweat a little if he's bluffing or get prematurely excited if he has a monster.

from the button, it's tougher to use pfr (if a blind raises) since you're last to act. the rest is pretty much the same.

having looked at both sides, I have to agree with the cheesecake orgy faction.

[skp]

Both are bad plays but calling on the button is worse. To me, the key thing is that from the bb, you have good relative position as you know where the flop bet is likely to come from. You get to act last preflop and on the flop.

If you limp on the button, you do so with no idea as to where the flop bet will come from.

I do acknowledge Andy's point that in the bb scenario, the chances of you being up against a big hand are much greater than in the limp on the button scenario. But with a cheesy hand like 94, you are going to have to make a big hand to win. And if you make a big hand, you *WANT* to have someone in there with an overpair or Ak or some such strong preflop hand. So, again, that makes calling from the bb better than limping on the button i.e. you will make less when you win on the button because if you flop big, there may not be someone there to flop almost as big.

I also like Rick's analogy to the 94s scenario. Again, calling from the bb with 94s when UTg raises and a gaggle of players call is a gimme. Limping on the button after a gaggle limp ahead of you is probably just an okay play.

[Tommy Angelo]

"I love the 'leaning guy' picture."

I had this idea of depicting tiltlessness by making a picture of the leaning tower without the lean. Searching the web for a drawing to tinker with, I found this cartoon by somebody-famous-who-I-should-be-naming-now-but-can't-recall, and I stopped looking. I had me a hero.

"Is worser a word?"

If we say so.


Tommy

[Tommy Angelo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are you saying that having the button vs. the BB is worth 10sb?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm afraid to read Tommy's response.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL!!!

Am I saying that with everybody in there, that the button is 10sb better than the big blind?

No. More like 15sb. Which would make it 5sb better in actual dollars.

Is that the answer you were afraid of? :-)

Let's assume that if I flop nothing with the 94, I fold, from the button or the blind, so all those events are a wash.

The hands/situations that matter for our comparison are anytime I flop a hand with which it would be deemed correct by a 2+2 expert panel to see the turn.

I will group them:

1)Draws: one pair or an open-ender. Sometimes it will be right to see the turn with these hands. And many turns will be seen with these hands. (A potentially interesting point here is that in some situations on the flop, especially with drawing hands, it could be correct to see the turn from the button, but not from the big blind. Does this fact add some value, in sb's, to the button?)

2)Shakey made hands: two pair and trips. By shakey I mean, I will often lose when a four-flush or four-straight hits the board, or if there is big action on the turn and/or river.

3)really good made hands: full houses and quads

I thought about all these situations for a while today, about how betting actually goes down when I have those various hands, up front, or behind. And compared them. How much the good hands win when they win, from the button compared to the blind, and how much they lose when they lose, counting pot sizes in my head. Thinking about rivers, raises, calls, folds, free cards, and folds.

Let's say we did thousands of trials of the 94o, from the button in unraised pots, and from the big blind in single-raised ones, with 10 players in for every flop, of only those hands where I flopped a draw or better, and I played them out, with all variations of boards and players and everything.

I think my score on the button would be higher than my score from the big blind by 5sb's per hand.


Tommy