Another Question:pre-flop

[MushashiAce]

Quick question, and a somewhat small occurence. 2-3 poeple end up[ calling an all in pre-flop, is it still worth calling with anyone of these hands? AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AKs, AQs? Cause i looked at two dimes as far as suited connectors pre-flop wersus all sorts of good, average pre-flop hands, and they supposedly have the higher %, any advice as far as playing shortstacked with any one of these previous stated hands? I'm basing this on poor % of winning, and my fear is that with that many people, your odds with some of these stellar hands plummets. Thanx

[astroglide]

you should call with aces if every player at the table goes all-in preflop. i think you're probably seeing that a win rate of 50% or less is sub-optimal, because you lose more than you win. that is not the chief consideration.

let's say you have 2 opponents, so 3 players total. if you win 34% of the time you will show a profit if everyone goes all in preflop. you each put in equal amounts of money, so that's 33.33% of the pot. if you take out more than 33.33% of the pot over time, you have profit.

[MushashiAce]

yeah, but I'm also considering tournament play, which is a big part of my time, and making these calls with some of the lesser hands i mentioned, any help?

[astroglide]

it depends on how terrible your opponents are and what stage of the tournament you are in. the only generally SAFE hands to call all in with are AA/KK, and QQ/AK to a lesser extent.

AA is invulnerable preflop. KK is only REALLY hurt by AA. any ace will only win about 30% against it. QQ is where the trouble starts: AA and KK thrash it, and AK is 50/50. JJ is considerably worse: AA/KK/QQ/AK/AQ/KQ. etc. just consider your hand, and consider how likely it is for somebody to hold and move in with a hand that is WORSE than yours.

[MushashiAce]

yeah but the % to win calling three others, especially in a tournament like this shortstacked, is it worth risking?

[astroglide]

i feel that i've done a good job of answering your questions and you're just being hopeless in light of hard facts. i already outlined reasons to call or fold, and they can be applied to any situation with any number of opponents. whether or not you will get more opportunities to triple up (or more) and whether or not you feel you could do any better given the blinds and opponents is a subjective weight.

[MushashiAce]

Sorry, i wasn't being an ass, my primary concern as the fact that there would be a good chance that with the proper hands in play, say low pockets, high suited connectors, etc.. that this play might not be a good call when your trying to survive in a tournament. My concern with surviving shortstacked was what i was focused on, and the fact that AA can become a slight disfavorite with suited connectors being played. I read what you said and it made me think that its still a good call, cause i can't see anyone playing an all in unless they had a large stack and knew they had the highest, or only suited connector. I'm basically just wondering if the above factor (playing with alot of poeple on small stack) is either a concern or if there is some guideline I'm not aware of, cause from what i read from sklansky, surviving to reach the money is a concern which could merit a fold here?!??? Needless to say i got burned doing exactly this, hence i was wondering if somehting like that would be a standard fold or not?

[astroglide]

i think a some of it depends on whether or not you want to land in the money or try to actually win it. it would have to be an EXCEPTIONAL situation to get me to fold pocket aces preflop, and the one you have described does not come close to being exceptional. call with no regrets.

[pzhon]

If there are no blinds, fold anything other than the nuts. If the antes took 99% of everyone's stack at your table, overcall all-in with 72o.

You need to consider how much strength is represented by your opponents' pushes. It doesn't take much to push UTG if you have a very short stack, e.g., less than the BB. It takes a lot of strength to push for 10xBB UTG at a full table. You can always call all-in with AA (except on the bubble), but whether it is a good idea with JJ depends on the situation.

If you think suited connectors are good, try them on twodimes against hands that are likely to get involved in a multiway all-in. JTs doesn't do well against QQ, KK, and AKs, even if none of the other hands has a card in the suit of the JT, which is quite favorable. After 3 people push, it might be right to get involved because of dead money in the pot, but I don't think you can expect to win 25%.

[Bozeman]

There are often cases in tournament play where it is correct to fold AK or AQ, even if your opponents can have many worse hands. For example, if they need any ace or pair to go/call allin, you are +chip EV but possibly -$EV to call since you will often be facing a pp and a weaker A.

For medium-large pocket pairs, there needs to be a good chance you are facing a higher pp in order to fold, in general.

Craig