WSOP event #6 -- question on KK play

[Scooterdoo]

Hi, guys. This was the 2.5k 6-handed event which was great. I won't go into a full report but have a question on my bust-out hand. The question isn't so much about how I played it, but about an alternative way to play the hand that someone at the tournament suggested how he would have played it. A little background:

Started with about 460 and we're down to a little under 100. I believe the top 65 or so get paid, but as always, I'm playing to win, not to just get paid. I have a great run up until now and am up to 15k or so which I would guess is in the top 10%. One player at my table is even with me (CK Hua, a solid and aggressive pro). We've had several run-ins for the two hours I've played with him. On the second hand I played at this table I'm up to 14k already (this is two hours earlier than my final hand when I'm also in the 14-15k range, so at this point I'm probably in the top 1-5 in chips with 200 or so people left!) I have A9s in on the button and make it 600 to go with 100/200 blinds. He raises me 2000 from the BB with 2000 left behind him. I was really thrown off by his massive over-bet. I come to conclusion that he would not bet this much with a better A or an over-pair and that he must be making a move and feels I'll give up the hand. I put him on a weak Ace a KQ type hand or maybe a small pair. I'm not going to just call the bet, so I push. He calls as I expect him to and shows 36o! Of course he sucks out on me. His stack goes up and down and during the two hours he is all-in three other times against other players. Each time he has the worst of it and each time he wins. We have several pots against each other and several times I show down hands that I win, but where it is clear that I was making moves on him and betting when I didn't have anything. There was also a hand when I took quite a bit from his friend sitting next to him when I limped on the button with 56s, and hit the nut straight on the river when his friend hit trips. The two of them appeared to be gunning for me so I decided to switch gears for a while and play a bit tight and try to catch them with a strong hand.

Here's the key hand: CK and I both have $15k with 150/300 blinds and 50 ante. CK make it 1k from MP (he has been raising about 25% of the pots regardless of his position, but of course it's only 6 handed) and I look down at KK in the BB. I think through my options. Don't want to just call because if I then want to take the pot after the flop there's not much in there. I can raise all-in or a substantial amount but then I don't get much out of the hand if he doesn't call. I decide to make a mini-raise of 1k to get the pot up somewhat and then make a much bigger bet if the flop is favorable with the hope of taking the pot right there. The flop comes 459o and I bet 4500 which is about a pot-sized raise. He thinks for a while and raises me a few thousand which is pretty weird since he's leaving himself very little. I'm a bit worried about a set or AA but decide that I pretty much have to call. Against another player I might fold (but I doubt it), but against him I really can see him doing this with AK, an overpair to the board A9 or even a straight draw. I decide that he could be leaving the money back because he is either tricking to call or he's tricking me to fold (50/50 either way). Anyway, I call and he turns over 55 and I'm done.

The reason for my post is not to discuss the 'standard' ways to play the hand which would be either checking preflop or betting more preflop (say a 2-3k raise) because I'm convinced that without a scary board - A, pair, flush draw, etc. - I'm going to lose my money anyway with my KK vs. flopped set.

Here's the issue: Someone suggested that they would have pushed preflop even though there was only 1.4k in the pot. Their rationale is that they don't want to tangle with another big stack so they would be happy to just take down the pot right there. Plus the push looks like a mid-pair type hand so sometimes you WILL get a call from either a A9-AQ type hand or a mid to high pair -- 99-QQ. I'm not sure if CK would have folded 55 (I'm guessing he calls me) but just wondering if any of you like the pre-flop push in this situation.

[bruce]

I think you were too fancy BTF. Your miniraise does very little except to define your hand from your opponents perspective. He is obviously going to call and he has a pretty good idea you have a big pocket pair. He is either going to win a big pot or you'll win a small pot this way. Against an
aggressive player like him out of position I would prefer to make a much bigger preflop raise or even move all in. He is the only player who can bust you and he's a tough opponent and your playing with your hand basically open.

Bruce

[michaliv]

I agree that you should have pushed preflop. The way he was playing, he probably would have called you. Pushing here keeps you from having to think about what he has later. He has been very aggressive, so he would have probably raised the flop with a lot of hands.

[durron597]

Preflop you have to make the decision: do I want to risk my whole stack on the chips gained from making a pot sweetening bet that he must call and letting him see a cheap flop.

He did not make an FTOP mistake - he is correct to call you with 55 if he knows you have KK because he will likely stack you the times he makes a set unless an A flops. The other problem is that you sometimes let him get away cheap when you have him dominated, or you can invite him to take the pot away from you when he has an underpair and an A flops. Imagine he has JJ, and the flop comes AQx. He will call the larger raise anyway but the hand becomes very tough to play.

Also, didn't give the other stack sizes at the table - if you were both in fact very large stacks (30 BB sounds large) then playing it like this adds unnecessary risk. I don't like pushing preflop, but I would raise to like 3000-3200.

[Sam T.]

I understand the logic of not tangling with another big stack, but with KK I think it's a different story. Yes he can bust you, but he can also double you up, and then you're going deep, baby.

I'd raise more pre-flop, but I'm pretty much an ABC player.

Why pot the flop? Against normal players a smaller bet will chase those who missed. Were you trying to discourage him from making a move? (I'm not saying it's wrong, just wondering.)

The raise is tough to read, but I think you were right not to sweat it too much. As you say, he's probably just messing with your head. You know he's essentially all in, he knows he's essentially all in, and he knows you know, etc. etc..

One question: What do you think he put you on? Your min-reraise seems like a bet that wants action (which it was), so he's probably put you on a pretty good hand. Then you make a big bet, saying "Big hand." Or I guess it could be saying, "AK that missed, and I'll fold to a raise, so please come over the top." In which case you should call. Poker is hard.

You put him on a reasonable range of hands, and got beat. Not going broke here would require a the read of the century or a weak-tight game.

Sam

[Sluss]

[ QUOTE ]
The two of them appeared to be gunning for me so I decided to switch gears for a while and play a bit tight and try to catch them with a strong hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

Why when people do this do they then play the trap hand different from the hands they have gone to war with before?

I'm guilty as well, but I think this is where things really went wrong.

[sirio11]

The way I play AA or KK with your stack is to reraise to 4k, because I don't want to give them the odds to play with a smaller pair. If they still call and they flop the set, so be it, buy they made a mistake. Since you just raised to 2k, they are given the right odds to call.

I don't like the push preflop, he's not calling you unless he has a very big hand like JJ or better.

David

[scott8]

I think if you are playing to win as you mentioned, the best time to get involved with another big stack is when you have a monster.
I do think you have to raise more preflop, however, b/c the bet you made screams monster hand and he has to call the mini-raise preflop and will then only continue if he makes his hand.
-SC

[sdplayerb]

i was about to say the same thing, but you beat me to it.
I'd go somewhere between 3,500 and 4K.

honestly a minraise is the 2nd worst option behind folding.
You just told him you have a monster, and you make his play from there really easy.

[Greeksquared]

Everyone so far is saying how bad the minraise preflop was. Im not saying its a great play, although here it probably was not the best option. I don't mind a min raise if you are min raising quite a bit. I also don't mind the min raise if you have over 100BB. In this hand it seems like the last two points I just made were not true for you. A min raise keeps the pot small so that you can let go of your big pair easily. Because you minraised, he could have anything. I would have bet no more than half the pot here because of that. Since you did not charge him at all to see the flop, you really have no idea where you stand. There is nothing wrong with taking a small stab at this pot.

Also, there is not a problem with "just" making the money and not winning.