Unorthodox hand

[Martin Aigner]

I guess one can´t learn too much out of this hand since the circumstances don´t come up too often, but I´m still curious how to play that hand.

NLHE, Blinds/Antes 200/400/50 and stacks are as follows:

Villain 1: 8k
Villain 2: 9k
Hero: 7k

Now this was a 9handed table, but the other players weren´t important in that hand. V1 calls UTG+1. He playes somewhat loose and aggressively, but not extremly. Everybody else mucks, and V2 in the SB calls. The strange thing is that V2 took his first look at his cards when button mucked and he flipped his cards too high, so that Hero, who was watching the action from V2, could see them. (I´m pretty sure that nobody else noticed that Hero saw the hand, and Hero didn´t announce this fact either). He showed 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Hero checked in the BB with 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

Flop comes Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Now V2 bets out his middle pair for 800.

a) What´s the proper action here for hero and why? (V1 shows no sign of wanting to call/raise/fold)

b) Should Hero announce the fact that he saw the hand of V2?

Heros action will be followed in a seperate post.

Thanks

Martin Aigner

[TomHimself]

i would call and try to put him off his hand on turn or river if a scare card comes.

i dont know what the ethics are for this or whatever though

[locutus2002]

I think you need to tell him to protect his cards as soon as you see his hand. After the flop its too late because there are too many hands where the knowledge would be extremely unfair.

I'd fold and be angry with myself for not doing the right thing earlier. If you need the pot more than your dignity, then raise.

[Exitonly]

[ QUOTE ]

I'd fold and be angry with myself for not doing the right thing earlier. If you need the pot more than your dignity, then raise.

[/ QUOTE ]


Yep just annouce that you saw his cards, save yourself a moral dilema.

[Martin Aigner]

[ QUOTE ]
If you need the pot more than your dignity, then raise

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, I admit that I didn´t take my dignity too much into considerations when the hand was played. But I can´t see raising as the proper play here (with a player behind me). Actually I was only considering to fold or call. Maybe I´m wrong though.

BTW, if I told the dealer/floorperson that I had see the hand preflop: What would the proper ruling be? Declare the hand dead?

[locutus2002]

Raise to isolate. Bet the turn.

I'd be more vague and just tell the player to protect his cards. At that point its the dealer's responsibility to manage the situation. I'm not going to let go of a big hand BTF under these circumstances. I think you're likely to get a random ruling from a floor person.

My advice applies if you saw one card, the suit, a pair of KK or anything. The player may wish to continue if the hand is big enough.

[Martin Aigner]

I understand that you raise to isolate, but I think that this could be accomplished by a call most of the time, too. Even if I raise, V1 won´t muck too many hands that include a Q. But if he has no Q and no draw it´s pretty tough for him to call against a bettor and a caller. That´s at least what I thought while playing the hand.

[locutus2002]

If you call then UTG can call with a very wide range of hands, or even worse he could just raise because the field looks weak. You lose your advantage if UTG calls and the pot odds are pretty sweet.

A raise is likely to win the pot right there except in the ~20% case where UTG has a Q or a flush draw with an over (thereabouts).

[Martin Aigner]

Should Hero have told the dealer that he has seen the hand of V2? Or is it only in the responsibility of V2 to protect his hand?

This situation comes up not that rarely. I used to tell it to my opponents who lift their cards so high that I can see them for several years. This is: I told them ONCE, and if they continued I took full advantage. But to tell the truth: I have never heard anybody else say this to somebody else. Now I don´t think that nobody but me recognizes when somebody lifts his cards too high, so I guess that virtually everybody else is taking full advantage, too. And that´s why I don´t tell anymore most of the time. (There are expections, depending for instance on the location, the age of the other player, whether the other player was new to poker, ...)

E.g. if the other guy was somebody, who was very old, I´d tell him as soon as I spotted his problem. This happens pretty regulary with old folks, and I don´t feel comfortable in this situation. But this was a 1k buy in tourney, and so I think that everybody should be aware that he has to protect the cards themselfes. Therefore I don´t feel any obligation to the player who lifts his cards too high. But I understand that it´s an unfair advantage I´ve gained over all the other players who don´t know this. But, as I´ve stated before: Virtually nobody else ever stands up and says that he has seen the cards of another player, so one could argue that I was just making up the advantage other players have had in the past against me.

I´m not saying that I´m sure that my behaviour was right. I just think that it´s a close call.

[Martin Aigner]

I see your point. Would it make a difference if I told you that Hero had an ULTRATIGHT image, who would not be considered to call the bet from V2 if he had less than a Q? (although this image was due to horrible cards mainly)