The Root of All Evil?

[DougShrapnel]

The problem with translation is that alot of meaning gets lost. This should read

For the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
--1 Timothy 6:10,11

1.) The bible has gone through several translations.
2.) The expression is viable as a figure of speech.

It would be futile to discuss this point when we would not know if we discussed language semantics or the nature of evil/sin.

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Ah, right. I had a feeling I overlooked the obvious on that one. So you're just rehashing the same argument I see 20 times a day on this forum? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Militancy, I suppose.

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No problem, just responding to the same argument that have been rehashed for over 2000 years. I mean there are a limited number of pages and words in the texts you quote. As far as militancy, well how to you respond to militancy by meekness, by tolerating the intolerable, by saying nothing, by keeping quite and allowing the promotion of something that is double talk, to the verge of , if not full on, obscenity? NO, I'll stay quiet and even respectful, in a humouring way, as long as a blatant contradiction is not promoted as truth and the basis of an open argument and used the basis of a judgement on my activities.

In other words, I like fantasy just as much as any one, in litterature, art and folklore, but I will not base my life on it. And I will voice this opinion, just on the off chance that it may takes someone's dust (or is it more) out of their eyes, allowing them to see things as they are, and hopefully thereby promoting compassion and peace.

BTW I thought I was fully on topic too.

[NotReady]

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To those knowledgable in biblical scripture (and I'm looking at you NotReady ) is the above translaton of "ALL evil" correct?


If it is, then isn't Jesus dismissing all sin that doesn't have to do with loving money?

And if it isn't, then how should it read?


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I believe the best translation is "The love of money is a root of all kinds of evil". Root does not have the definite article in the original. Translating panton kakos as "all kinds of evil" is something of an interpretation, however.

The text doesn't say that the love of money is the only cause of evil. Nor does it say that the love of money is the cause of every single evil. Nor does it say that money is the root, but the love of money. One principle of interpretation is to consider all relevant texts, especially if one text causes apparent difficulty. Naturally some will then say that you can make the Bible mean anything you want. However, any author can be taken out of context and made to contradict himself. The Bible has many passages dealing with sin and with money. Taking all together it's clear the love of money is not the only root of evil, but that it is a very great one, and that riches alone can be dangerous. It is also clear that sin has other causes besides the love of money. Therefore, taking all texts in context, it's reasonable to interpret this passage to mean "all kinds of evil". There are other uses of the word "all" in the Bible that require this kind of meaning in order to make sense.

We sometimes use the word "all" this way, not to mean every single one of a class, but all kinds or types, or even to emphasize a great number of instances. The Bible uses literary figures and idioms, and it's usually very clear when these are meant. This allows for poetry, metaphors, similes, parables, hyperboles and other figures of speech. Each must make up his own mind about the correct interpretation. Motive counts.

While thinking about the above answer something else occurred to me so the following is just a recent speculation and not offered as traditional dogma. Jesus said that you can't serve two masters, riches and God, but you must choose. Though I know He didn't mean this example to cover everything, it's significant that in a sense He divided the choices people make into these two possibilities. He said you will serve one and hate the other. So if you are in the service of money, you will hate God. There is something more to this than what first appears and I believe some very deep consideration of it may reveal something about human nature. So there may be a sense in which the love of money is connected to all the evil we do.

[purnell]

Just tossing this out there, take it for what it's worth. If we think of "evil" as that which causes suffering, and "the love of money" as greed, or desire for possessions, this biblical statement squares nicely with the buddhist idea that desire is the cause of suffering.

[hmkpoker]

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To those knowledgable in biblical scripture (and I'm looking at you NotReady ) is the above translaton of "ALL evil" correct?


If it is, then isn't Jesus dismissing all sin that doesn't have to do with loving money?

And if it isn't, then how should it read?


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I believe the best translation is "The love of money is a root of all kinds of evil". Root does not have the definite article in the original. Translating panton kakos as "all kinds of evil" is something of an interpretation, however.

The text doesn't say that the love of money is the only cause of evil. Nor does it say that the love of money is the cause of every single evil. Nor does it say that money is the root, but the love of money. One principle of interpretation is to consider all relevant texts, especially if one text causes apparent difficulty. Naturally some will then say that you can make the Bible mean anything you want. However, any author can be taken out of context and made to contradict himself. The Bible has many passages dealing with sin and with money. Taking all together it's clear the love of money is not the only root of evil, but that it is a very great one, and that riches alone can be dangerous. It is also clear that sin has other causes besides the love of money. Therefore, taking all texts in context, it's reasonable to interpret this passage to mean "all kinds of evil". There are other uses of the word "all" in the Bible that require this kind of meaning in order to make sense.

We sometimes use the word "all" this way, not to mean every single one of a class, but all kinds or types, or even to emphasize a great number of instances. The Bible uses literary figures and idioms, and it's usually very clear when these are meant. This allows for poetry, metaphors, similes, parables, hyperboles and other figures of speech. Each must make up his own mind about the correct interpretation. Motive counts.

While thinking about the above answer something else occurred to me so the following is just a recent speculation and not offered as traditional dogma. Jesus said that you can't serve two masters, riches and God, but you must choose. Though I know He didn't mean this example to cover everything, it's significant that in a sense He divided the choices people make into these two possibilities. He said you will serve one and hate the other. So if you are in the service of money, you will hate God. There is something more to this than what first appears and I believe some very deep consideration of it may reveal something about human nature. So there may be a sense in which the love of money is connected to all the evil we do.

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http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_d...7-6508.html#10

Riza [the root] gar [for] panton kakon [all evil] estin [is] i filargiria [the love of money]

Admittedly, I am not very familiar with biblical Greek. I could accept an argument from a Greek scholar either way, whether it means "many" or "all." However, I am fluent in conversational Greek, and from what I know, "panton" and its roots almost always denote "all." Other words exist ("poli" and its derivatives, for example) that could more accurately articulate "many."

This, however, really is a semantic squabble, and the correct answer is the one that has the better lawyer arguing it. It's neither the root of a good argument "against" the bible, nor a terribly big issue for Christians; Paul is simply telling us that greed causes one to stray from his faith and brings unhappiness.

Let's focus on the spirit of the law.

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Paul is simply telling us that greed causes one to stray from his faith and brings unhappiness.

Let's focus on the spirit of the law.

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I think this is right on but I want to expand it a bit. Love of money is idolatry. Idolatry is not a bad thing because a jealous and powerful god will smite you if you worship something other than him - it is a bad thing b/c you become what you worship. That is, the negative consequences of worshipping money are a direct result of that worship, not a punishment imposed by a third party.

Worshipping money leads to conflict among men because money is perceived to be scarce. What I believe Jesus reveals about God is that God's love is infinite and therefore is not scarce, thus if humans realize that their being is fulfilled be receiving God's love they would avoid conflict over money.

Someone mentioned the Buddist idea of eliminating all desire - this a very interesting concept and headed in the right direction. But, my personal opinion is that to be human is to have desires, so this goal is quite unattainable.

However, limiting one's desire to God (which is the focus of the first few commandments (depending on how you count)) is an achievable and transformative goal. Following these commandments leads to peace and happiness not because God rewards his loyal followers but because they are actually good ideas that make it possible for human communites to exist without rivalry.

[hmkpoker]

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Paul is simply telling us that greed causes one to stray from his faith and brings unhappiness.

Let's focus on the spirit of the law.

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I think this is right on but I want to expand it a bit. Love of money is idolatry. Idolatry is not a bad thing because a jealous and powerful god will smite you if you worship something other than him - it is a bad thing b/c you become what you worship. That is, the negative consequences of worshipping money are a direct result of that worship, not a punishment imposed by a third party.

Worshipping money leads to conflict among men because money is perceived to be scarce. What I believe Jesus reveals about God is that God's love is infinite and therefore is not scarce, thus if humans realize that their being is fulfilled be receiving God's love they would avoid conflict over money.

Someone mentioned the Buddist idea of eliminating all desire - this a very interesting concept and headed in the right direction. But, my personal opinion is that to be human is to have desires, so this goal is quite unattainable.

However, limiting one's desire to God (which is the focus of the first few commandments (depending on how you count)) is an achievable and transformative goal. Following these commandments leads to peace and happiness not because God rewards his loyal followers but because they are actually good ideas that make it possible for human communites to exist without rivalry.

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You're twisting words around. Only I am allowed to do that [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

The word "filargiria" [love of money] uses the root "filos" (I think; I don't know the old Greek), which denotes a not-very-intense kind of love. It is not agape. It basically just means liking money.

Secondly, with this logic, couldn't you argue that you're not supposed to really like ANYTHING? If I love another person, be it my girlfriend, wife, child, parent, whatever, isn't that a false idol?

*cue an atheist quoting Luke 14:26*

[hmkpoker]

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One could say that masturbating and premarital sex ARE worldy posessions, thus back to my thesis on the meaning of the scripture. In a piece of literature (I don't remember the title) I can recall that "love" of anything more than faith is a sin. Sex is a physical (albeit emotional also) experiece, (physical being the key word) as is masturbation. Both of your exampeles ARE indeed wordly posessions simply because they are not tangible doesn't mean that they are not. The material posession that I make reference to is the act of coitus, with another and self; both of which Jesus makes very specific comments towards regarding the physicality of both and the nature of sin begind both: "do not spill thy own seed"...just something to think about.

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Literally and in context, Philarguria means "love of money." (Or literally "love of silver" (phileo = to love; arguros = silver). However, given Paul's general slant against sex as well, I think it fits, although vaguely and purely as a metaphor.

On a completely different note, I particularly dislike this Epistle chapter. Wealthy people, on average, lead much happier and more fulfilling lives than poor people. Instructing people that it is wrong to like money and worldly possessions, and implying a punishment for same (hell) would be an excellent propaganda strategy for an elite few to use on the stupid masses.

[UMTerp]

Slightly off topic, but funny:

http://www.skyzyx.com/img/girlsareevil.jpg