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  #1  
Old 12-21-2005, 04:57 PM
tpir90036 tpir90036 is offline
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Default I still have trouble when I get 3-bet

I have an irrational fear of being weak-tight and my defense mechanism for this is to go into super passive calling mode for better or for worse. Here are two 15/30 hands from last night:

Hand #1:
8-handed, folded to me in the CO and I raise A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. My image at his table is utter [censored]. I have been getting a nice stream of premium hands pre-flop but have not shown down any winners in a while. I get 3-bet by the button who is not aggro but is probably sick of me raising and might be coming after me light.

Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
I check and call.

Turn: 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
I check and call.

River: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
I check and the BB bets.... ugg.

I beat nothing at this point. Easy fold without a good read?


Hand #2
Same game, next orbit, I open in the CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and get 3-bet by the BB who seems like a reasonable player but again might be sick of my raise-fest which appears to be full of sound and fury signifying nothing.

Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
BB bets, I call.

Turn: 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
BB bets....

Just fold the flop? That doesn't seem right, but I might have 0-3 outs. Raising the turn would be nice in a perfect world but my image is such crap that I think the odds of me getting AK/AQ to fold is zero. Easy muck on the turn? Pot is kind of small and all that.

Ugg. I hate getting 3-bet pre-flop. That throws me off more than anything else for some reason.

Thanks in advance,
-tpir

addendum: B Dibs has suggested to me in private that I might be over-thinking my image and I would like to concede that this might be true... but my PFR was seriously like 40% for a few orbits.
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  #2  
Old 12-21-2005, 05:01 PM
B Dids B Dids is offline
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Default Re: I still have trouble when I get 3-bet

Hand 1, I just raise the flop and move on from there, if at some point you think you're beat, I'd fold. This one seems like it hinges a lot on your read on him.

Hand 2 I fold the turn.
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  #3  
Old 12-21-2005, 05:10 PM
tpir90036 tpir90036 is offline
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Default Re: I still have trouble when I get 3-bet

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2 I fold the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
Anyone just fold the flop against a non-aggro? I mean how much equity do I really have here vs. a regular dude's 3-betting range?
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  #4  
Old 12-21-2005, 08:26 PM
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Default Re: I still have trouble when I get 3-bet

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2 I fold the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
Anyone just fold the flop against a non-aggro? I mean how much equity do I really have here vs. a regular dude's 3-betting range?

[/ QUOTE ]
Tpir, against a "non-aggro" folding the flop in hand 2 would be the standard play since the probability you are drawing to 3 outs is now too high when compared to the odds you are getting to draw to a pair. Against a more aggressive opponent the probability that you have 6 outs go up, and the probability that you have the best hand goes up thus making a flop peal correct IMO. And against a super aggressive opponent, you should be taking this hand to the river every time and calling whether you improve or not.

I want to talk about Hand 1 now. When you flop top pair in this situation, whether you should call down or play back by checkraising the flop or bet/3betting depends on what kind of range you put the villain on. Naturally the tighter your opponents 3 betting range, the more likely calling down will be the correct strategy. For instance if you put your opponent on a tight range like: TT-AA,AK, and you flop top pair then you should just call down, since if you play back at your opponent youre too likely to end up getting raised back by a better hand that has you drawing thin, or you may induce your opponent to fold a 2 outer, which is also bad for you. In this example checking and calling all the way(and maybe betting the river if your opponent never bluffraises) is the line that will make you the most money or save you the most money in the long run.

However in your hand you raised from the CO, and the Button reraised you, in this situation with no read, you should assume that the button's 3 betting range is now not nearly as tight since he may be putting you on a steal.

In this situation with no reads I would tentatively put the button on this hand range: 77-AA,AK,AQ,AJ,ATs,KQ,KJs. Against this range the probability of you running into a stronger hand is now much lower, and most importantly the probability that the button now has a second best hand that pays you off all the way is much higher.

If you checkraise the flop the villain is likely to pay you off all the way with a hand like KJs,AJ,KQ. Also if the villain has a hand like ATs or AK on this QJx flop, he'll likely go to the river and then fold unimproved.

Now if you play back by checkraising the flop you still face the problem of running into a better hand or inducing your opponent to fold a 2 outer, but you will make enough money from the second best hands/draws that call you down to more than make up for it. So in your hand example on the QJx flop, I would checkraise the flop. But if you had raised UTG and a solid player 3 bet you from any position, I would just call down.

So the tighter your opponents 3 betting range the more apt you should be to just check and call all the way down when you flop something like top pair with a hand like AQ, but the wider your opponent's 3 betting range the more likely you should take an aggressive action to get more money in the pot becuz the odds of him having a second best hand that will pay off all the way goes up.
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  #5  
Old 12-22-2005, 07:11 AM
siegfriedandroy siegfriedandroy is offline
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Default Re: I still have trouble when I get 3-bet

dam that was a good post
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  #6  
Old 12-21-2005, 05:12 PM
wheelz wheelz is offline
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Default Re: I still have trouble when I get 3-bet

i cap the first one preflop, often i'd cap the second one too. having just called, in hand 1 i c/r the flop and go from there, hand 2 i fold the turn.
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  #7  
Old 12-21-2005, 05:16 PM
private joker private joker is offline
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Default Re: I still have trouble when I get 3-bet

Your open raise in Hand 1 looks like a steal or semi-steal, so he doesn't have to be giving you credit for a hand as big as AQ, especially since he's sick of you raising.

When you say there's nothing you can beat, I think your range is too narrow. I'd also grant him hands like KQ/AJ/AT, etc. The river is a call. But I'd prefer you checkraised the flop and took control of the aggression.
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  #8  
Old 12-21-2005, 05:19 PM
Joe Tall Joe Tall is offline
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Default Re: I still have trouble when I get 3-bet

Donk the flop in Hand#1 and 3-bet a raise. I guess the BB called 2 cold?!?!

Hand #2 fold the turn.
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  #9  
Old 12-21-2005, 05:31 PM
tpir90036 tpir90036 is offline
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Default Re: I still have trouble when I get 3-bet

[ QUOTE ]
Donk the flop in Hand#1 and 3-bet a raise. I guess the BB called 2 cold?!?!

Hand #2 fold the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
Both hands were HU. And I don't understand what 3-betting the flop accomplishes. What range of hands from a regular old non-aggro dude are 3-betting me pre-flop and raising me on the flop that I am still beating?
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  #10  
Old 12-21-2005, 05:39 PM
Joe Tall Joe Tall is offline
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Default Re: I still have trouble when I get 3-bet

Since you said:

[ QUOTE ]
I get 3-bet by the button who is not aggro but is probably sick of me raising and might be coming after me light. ..... I check and the BB bets.... ugg.

[/ QUOTE ]

I figured the BB called 2 cold or something not reading the action clearly. Check/call is fine.
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