When is it correct to sloplay?

Jonathan · #1 10-04-2004, 07:45 AM

After playing poker for a few months, I used to sloplay all the time. Finally, I got sick and tired of people drawing out on my trips and low straights, and I went to the opposite extreme of almost never sloplaying strong hands. I think I went too far, however, with the result that I'm failing to maximize value on my good hands.

When do you sloplay? I'm looking for some guidelines.

Below are two recent examples for discussion.

Thanks,

Jonathan
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Hand 1......
I played it fast, but later regretted doing so. I think my expectation may have been higher if I sloplayed. This tournament is $36 + $3 Satellite to the Sunday $250,000 guarateed prize pool. My chip position is not great, therefore I think I lost an opportunity to move up here. What do you think?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (8 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

SB (t1405)
BB (t4620)
UTG (t6355)
UTG+1 (t10105)
MP1 (t2260)
MP2 (t2410)
CO (t1680)
Hero (t2045)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 calls t100, MP2 calls t100, 1 fold, Hero calls t100, 1 fold, BB checks.

Flop: (t450) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets t400, BB folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds.

Final Pot: t850
Main Pot: t450 (t450), won by Hero.
Pot 2: t400 (t400), returned to Hero.

Hand 2......
From a $55 + $5 6 handed turbo Sit n Go
Here I thought was a good opportunity to sloplay. What do you think? Results to follow.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (5 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG (t1200)
MP (t1890)
Button (t2670)
Hero (t1260)
BB (t1980)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
3 folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t60) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets t30, Hero calls t30.

Turn: (t120) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets t30, Hero raises to t150, BB calls t120.

River: (t420) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets t390, BB raises to t1770, Hero calls t660 (All-In).

Final Pot: t3240
Main Pot: t2520 (t2520), between Hero and BB.
Pot 2: t720 (t720), returned to BB.

Lurshy · #2 10-04-2004, 10:37 AM

I'll give this a shot...

When you slow play, it usually takes a 2nd best hand to step up and pay off, unless you can induce a pure bluff from a known bluffer. You want to make certain the free card(s) you give are unlikely to hurt you. I think it also matters what your posiiton is. If EP, you are more likely to see someone feed the pot behind you with a TP, 2nd pair, or bluff bet, so a check is more likely to have the desired effect. But in late position with just a mini-monster and everone checking to you, you are simply giving everyone a free card - and a chance to pick up a card to beat you. You have seen when you have slo-played people suck out against you. In the 1st example, betting on the button will likely take down the hand unless someone has TP, This though is unlikely given the betting and the board). Betting here pot sized will even get rid of the gut shot JQ holders. But by giving the free card, someone can easily pick up a str8 or flush draw, and cause them to hang untill the river, it may even give 1010 or JJ a chance to pick up a set (and those hands may have not have raised or bet the flop in front of you). Now you can bet the turn with them on the draw, but they can suck out and beat you, though you are still the favorite.

Frankly, I would usually rather take it down than go to the river. If someone calls you fine, but the free thing is risky. I Think when you hold a hand that is less likely to be beat by free cards it is correct to slo play, You flop a quads or a boat (rare but it happens).

Now with the 1st board if someone had bet into you on the flop, a call may be okay. They are likely betting the K, and your set is good, there is little chance they can improve TP vs you, as if they make a 2nd pair your set is still good, and if the board pairs, you have the boat.... They may bet into you again on the turn when you can step it up.

Sets are good hands but they are rarely the nuts. Baby str8s or flushes may also lose on later streets to bigger ones. I usually do not try to get too fancy, and bet my hand in late position if it is checked to me, but if someone else bets into me thats another story, even then it can back fire.

Yesterday I lost a limit hand with a set of Aces as someone rivered a str8. I raised AA preflop late position two callers after my raise, someone in early position bet into me on the flop (Axx), I called 1 folder, Turn 10. EP bet, I raised he calls, River Q. EP of course flipped over the KJ... If I had raised the flop, I might have forced him out, though this was low limit (2-4) so who knows. I'm not complaining about a bad beat, I was a BIG favorite, and was heads up, and wanted him around, but I paid the price...

HTH

Jonathan · #3 10-04-2004, 05:00 PM

Thanks for the input.

So you think my play in the first example was OK.
What about the second hand?

Jonathan

Che · #4 10-04-2004, 05:09 PM

Jonathan-

I didn't read the particulars of the hand you posted, but here's the text from a post about why you should not slowplay from the NL/PL forum that I think is excellent:

[ QUOTE ]
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SLOWPLAYING IN BIG BET HOLD’EM

I think there are very, very few situations in NL/PL hold’em where the decision to slowplay is clearly more profitable than otherwise. In limit hold’em, I cannot think of a situation where you should ever slowplay.

My objection to slow playing is not entirely based on the fear of suckouts. In fact, fear of suckouts has little to do with it. It’s a matter of how to most profitably play your hands. And in NL hold’em, I think betting is always the way to go.

The biggest problem with slowplaying is that you give away your hand by doing so. Whenever somebody “wakes up” in a later round it’s pretty obvious they were slowplaying. I’m not talking about when a scare card comes like a third flush card and they move all-in. If somebody wakes up at that point, they are representing a flush, not slowplaying a set. So when somebody wakes up on an innocuous turn or river, you can be fairly sure they’ve slowplayed a monster. This usually means a set or a straight. If you are even THINKING of slowplaying two pair then you really need your head examined.

It’s simple really. Somebody is MUCH more likely to commit their stack on the flop with a hand like top pair than on the river. So if you’ve got a monster, get top pair to play aggressively with you right there on the flop. Another problem is that by slowplaying you often pass up a chance to get ANY chips because somebody with a hand like top pair who would have played with you will have to slowdown once the board gets scarier. Now you’ve lost profit because the board is too scary for anyone to do anything.

By not slowplaying, you also put more doubt into your opponents heads, especially if you have position. If three people check to me on the button and I bet out with the nuts, I’m MUCH more likely to get action than if I wait until the turn or river. The button should bet out with quads as far as I’m concerned. You are (hopefully) betting aggressively from the button regularly, so there’s no need to disguise a big hand when you have it.

The other problem with slowplaying is that your opponent either has NO chance of catching up or a SLIM chance of beating you. Let’s say the flop comes KKQ and I’ve got 99. Even if a 9 comes on the river, I’m not putting in much money. MAYBE I’ll call a pot size bet if I’m in a bluff-catching mood. I’m certainly not going to call an all-in bet by the button who suddenly wakes up.

So even when you let them catch up slightly, you don’t make much. But you lose your whole stack when they catch up enough to beat you.

By betting you also look like you’re protecting a vulnerable hand. Then, you might actually get action from somebody who improves because they won’t think you have such a big hand to begin with. Like with the 99 example. Let’s say I have the button and the nut full house bets the size of the pot. We’ve both got huge stacks. I might call because I want to make a move on him if he checks or I might think he’s bluffing. If a nine comes on the turn and he bets again, I’m MUCH more likely to commit or at least raise a good amount. Instead, let’s say he checks to me and I bet the flop. He calls and check-raises me all-in on the turn. Even if I hit that nine, I will release more often than if he had started out as the aggressor. I’ll put him on a slowplay.

Many other players love to slowplay big hands. That’s why I think it’s best to keep betting with big monsters, because they expect you to slowplay like they would. You will get action from people with decent hands. On a flop like KKQ, you might get action from a queen if you bet from the button. You might get action from a straight draw. You might get bluffed by someone who just doesn’t believe you have a king. And you MIGHT get action from some fool who slowplayed QQ preflop or from some poor bastard with AK or KJ or KT or K9 or K2 if the players are bad enough. I’ve made HUGE pots by betting on the button with a monster. Somebody comes over the top, and it’s over.

If you want to induce a bluff by slowplaying out of position, it’s just as valid to induce a bluff by betting. If I flop the nuts and Sam B (an aggressive Bay Area player) is sitting behind me, I’m going to bet the flop and bet the turn and check the river. He will move in on me roughly 90% of the time with nothing. I would say you’ll get bluffed just as often when you check or bet, so you might as well bet when you have the nuts.

So, while slowplaying can be a profitable move, I think you make MORE money by not slowplaying. The concept of sucking people in for more money when you hold a monster doesn’t hold water in my opinion. You want to instigate action, you want to induce people to make a play at you, you want to get the other guy who was slowplaying the second nuts to finally wake up. If all the money doesn’t go in until the river when you flopped the nuts, you are not in good shape. Why is all that money going in now? With a board of KKQTA, if I have KQ but all the money goes in on the river when that ace shows up, I’ve got to be worried. It’s obvious to everyone that I slowplayed a big full house or that I MADE a big full house. So if somebody is there with me, he must have me beat.

The extra few chips I might make by waiting for someone to take a stab at the pot will not make up for the times when I can double my whole stack by instigating action, and it certainly won’t make up for those times when I LOSE my whole stack by giving someone a cheap river.

One last note. When playing pot limit, it’s even more important not to slowplay because you lose opportunity to get a lot of chips into the pot. Keep betting and building a pot.

So there you go, that’s why I think slowplaying is almost always the wrong move. I KNOW I’m going to get hammered for this one.
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Tommy Angelo:
Quote:
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Good post, Nate. I agree with every concept, but not entirely with your conclusions.

First, the word “slow play” is not clearly defined. Example, if I flop top pair and two players check to me and I bet $20 into an $80 pot, is that a slowplay?

No need to answer that. You can see there are infinite degrees of slowness. And oftentimes there is no clear line between “slow play” and “cautious play.”

Second, I question your absolutism because each one-on-one matchup at a full no-limit game is like a seperate game unto itself, with it’s own history, long range and short, and being flexible has value on its own.

Yeah, I’m stretching to find any sort of rebuttal. Good post.
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Goodie:
Quote:
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Let me give you an example of a hand that I slowplayed in the 340 WPF no limit event on Sunday. There were two callers and I was in the big blind with 22. The flop came something like 8 5 2 offsuit. I can’t imagine that betting this flop is the right thing to do. Checking this flop and having it get checked around is not at all a bad thing. There are many cards that can come off on the turn that might make one of the callers a second best hand. As it turned out, and Ace came off the deck on the turn and I bet out. Neither of them had an ace, but they very well could have and paid me off whereas they would have definetly folded to a bet on the flop.

As a rule, slowplaying is not correct, but there are many situations in which it is very much the right thing to do.
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Natedog:
Quote:
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I have almost no tournament experience. Tournaments and live ring game play are very very different. I will point out that checking is not necessarily slowplaying. Check-calling would be more of a slow-play.

One thing about slowplaying. It DOES become correct the less aggressive you are. If you don’t often try to pick up pots or raise with position preflop, then slowplaying is probably the way to go when you hit the flop hard. This should be obvious.

But I believe you should normally be playing fairly aggressively, pushing hard when people show weakness and picking up uncontested pots whenever the opportunity presents itself. If this is the case, slowplaying is silly. Bet when you have a hand, because you’re betting so often without one.

In the case of your 22 hand, you may be looking at this wrong. You didn’t get any action did you? I don’t see why you think slowplaying was correct.

That ace on the turn may have killed any action you might have got from your opponents. Even with mere overcards, you might have got a call or even a bluff-raise on the flop. If your opponents held 67 or 34, any 8, any overpair like TT, even A5 or overcards, you might have got some action on that flop. By checking and waiting for the scare card to come on the turn, you MIGHT have killed your own action. Just a thought. Those times when you are facing 85, A8, or a big overpair, you’re going to get the action anyway, so don’t slow down. The only thing that can hurt you is if a scare card comes and puts the frighteners on someone who may have played hard with you on the flop.

In other words, I think slowplaying your 22 was a mistake, unless you are generally very timid on the flop. Even then, you should probably bet out and hope somebody caught a piece.

However, I have almost no tourney experience, so this situation may call for a slowplay. Stack sizes, antes, blinds and tourney stage were not mentioned.
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[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it showed up, but NateDogg is the poster for the first block of text.

Hope this helps,
Che

patrick dicaprio · #5 10-04-2004, 05:59 PM

it really depends on what you mean by slowplay. for example one way to slowplay is to check call the flop turn and river. another is to check call the flop and check raise the turn.

one piece of advice is that you shoudlnt slowplay if there are draws out there that are likely holdings or if high cards flop and thepot was raised? why because the hands that will call a bet will play regardless of whether you check. for example if you flop a set of 9's on a AQ9 board and act first. there is no reason to slowplay since garbage hands wont play the later streets even if they catch something, and you may be missing an opportunity to get a lot of chips from AQ or AK.

Pat

gergery · #6 10-04-2004, 06:42 PM

Reread the sections in Theory of Poker on when to slowplay.

Basically, you want to slowplay in situations where 1) giving free/cheap cards is likely to let them improve to a second-best hand, but not a hand better than yours, 2) the pot is still fairly small, as with big pots its more important to win them, 3) forgoing getting chips in the pot now will be more than offset by your ability to get even more chips in the pot later. This is often because your opponents can improve, but sometimes because they think you’re weak and will bluff – so it works better vs. overly aggressive opponents. But there are many flops where it may be safe for you to slowplay, but your opponent is likely to be willing to pay to see turn cards.

Example 1 with the set of 99 is one of the best spots to slowplay, but even then any Q, J, T can make someone a straight. I’d probably check there, or bet smaller if you’re going to bet.

Example 2 is not quite as good a time to slowplay. There are 8 cards that make a flush, 3 other 9’s that make a higher straight, 3 other 6’s that let someone tie or beat you, and 9 other 7’s, 5’s, 8’s that could give someone a fullhouse – which is more likely since people play connectors so could have 87, 75, and they could have 88,77,55 and be only a 2:1 underdog to you now. So there are 23 cards or half the deck that mean you don’t have the best possible hand anymore. Also, the stacks are much deeper here, meaning you are giving your opponent much greater implied odds to bust you, and with those implied odds you are also not charging an opponent who likely would be willing to call your bets.

The big difference between these two scenarios is that in scenario 2: there are more hands that can improve to beat you, those hands are greater chances of improving, your opponent is more likely to be willing to pay to see turn/river cards

--Greg

RFJ · #7 10-04-2004, 10:51 PM

Slow play should not be done unless you have great control and are able to fold when you think your beat. If you cannot fold you should never slow play. Even if you are able to fold there are certain criterias. The stack of your chips. How many people are actually in the pot with you. The type of player loose or tight. Aggressive or passive.

Instinct · #8 10-05-2004, 04:20 AM

In the two examples you have given I would have taken an opposite approach. With a set of nines and the flop as it was there are limited hands that can be so dangerous with the turn card. Basically only gut shot draws, but keep in mind that if you give a free card and they hit you could lose all your chips. Holding a set of nines with a K72 rainbow flop, I would probably check.

In the second example there are alot of hands are very attractive with this kind of flop and even though you have the staight with a flush draw there are many hands that others could hold that can beat you. I want to make people pay here if they want to out draw you. Make these hands that have a shot at a higher flush or higher staight pay. Also the advantage of not slowplaying here is that someone may make a move with a weaker hand ( alot more hands would make a move in the second hand than the first. )

Jonathan · #9 10-05-2004, 09:50 AM

Thanks to all for the input.

Regarding hand two, I wonder if you even call this a "slowplay" since, although I checked the flop, I came right out making pot sized bets on the turn and river.

Thanks,
Jonathan

Chief911 · #10 10-05-2004, 10:00 AM

I'll chip in here, especially on hand 1.

I think this is a clear case of a very non-scary board, that you have to get some value out of. And betting 400 after 3 checks is likely to take down the pot there. I think you check here and hope someone makes a top pair, or starts to think their middle pair is good after the turn card. There are few cards that can wreck you here. Possible gutshot straight on the board, otherwise you look very good. Check the flop, and wait for someone to bet into you on the turn.

Nick