What is the difference betwwen these two scenarios?

[elwoodblues]

Let me put it this way --- if you thought taxes was theft (and didn't see a difference), I suspect you would be posting from prison right now. Are you? Have you tried to stop paying taxes? Have you fought people trying to collect taxes?

I stand by my original response.

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This is very unlike you...

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Not really.

[tylerdurden]

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But for the fact that the people have agreed to the existence of the government

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I didn't.

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Taxes are part of a social compact that we have made (or at least our predecessors have made.)

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How do agreements that my predecessors have made bind me?

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Essentially, we get the government that we've asked for.

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I didn't ask for it.

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The fact that you hold a minority position and can't get the government to change is part of living in a democratic republic.

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So if 51% of the people want to kill the other 49%, it's just part of democracy, right?

[Gunny Highway]

[ QUOTE ]
Let me put it this way --- if you thought taxes was theft (and didn't see a difference), I suspect you would be posting from prison right now. Are you? Have you tried to stop paying taxes? Have you fought people trying to collect taxes?

I stand by my original response.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. If someone puts a gun to my head in a dark alley and demands my wallet, I give it to him. Likewise, when government-sponsored thugs demand my property under threat of violence, I give it to them. My family needs me too much to spend my life in jail. As for what I'd do if I didn't have a family, it may or may not be different. I cannot say.

[Gunny Highway]

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But for the fact that the people have agreed to the existence of the government and its needs to support itself both in the establishment of the constitution and in the election of individuals who have created our laws. Taxes are part of a social compact that we have made (or at least our predecessors have made.) I really don't know what to tell you if you can't (or pretend you can't) see the difference.

Essentially, we get the government that we've asked for. The fact that you hold a minority position and can't get the government to change is part of living in a democratic republic.

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You're exactly right. That is the difference. That is the answer I was looking for. Also, what you've just implied is that any immoral act is no longer immoral as long as enough people agree to it.

[nicky g]

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As part of that society you should pay your share, or go to jail (or pay big fines) if you try to avoid your share. What you "feel about" taxes doesn't really matter to me.

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I'm going to build a fence and plant some trees. Since this will beautify the area (according to *my* definition), everyone else on the street will benefit from it. Therefore, everyone else on the street better pay their share ( which I will determine for them ) or else they will get a boot to the head. If they don't like it, they can move.

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I realise you don't think democracy is a legitimate defence of taxes, but there is a difference between elected representatives determining something and random individuals doing the same. Your analaogy is imappropriate.

[elwoodblues]

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How do agreements that my predecessors have made bind me?


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Society would collapse without this foundation.

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So if 51% of the people want to kill the other 49%, it's just part of democracy, right?

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No, we also have a Constitution that protects the minority from the tyranny of the majority. In a strict democracy, I suppose you are right. We do not live in a strict democracy. It really is a clever little system we have going (that you never approved of, but are receiving the benefits of.) You should read up on it.

[Gunny Highway]

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No, we also have a Constitution that protects the minority from the tyranny of the majority.

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Do you really believe this?

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In a strict democracy, I suppose you are right. We do not live in a strict democracy. It really is a clever little system we have going (that you never approved of, but are receiving the benefits of.) You should read up on it.

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Yes. Allowing the uneducated and stupid to elect the corrupt and incompetent really is a clever system.

[elwoodblues]

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No, we also have a Constitution that protects the minority from the tyranny of the majority.
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[/ QUOTE ] Do you really believe this?


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Yes. The existence of the bill of rights is a very compelling reason to believe this.

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Yes. Allowing the uneducated and stupid to elect the corrupt and incompetent really is a clever system.

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Exactly. What's so clever about it is that we allow people to choose their own destinies leaders instead of having someone else choose for them regardless of whether you think they're smart enough. If you don't like the stupid and uneducated voting, find a way to educate them to your beliefs. If you don't like who's running for office, run yourself or support candidates who you prefer.

The more I write about it, the more I like the system.

[tylerdurden]

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What's so clever about it is that we allow people to choose their own destinies leaders instead of having someone else choose for them regardless of whether you think they're smart enough.

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But I don't get to chose my own leaders. A bunch of people, of which I'm only one (maybe, if the mob allows me to vote), gets to decide who the leaders are for everyone. Why can't I just make my own decisions directly?

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If you don't like the stupid and uneducated voting, find a way to educate them to your beliefs.

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I still don't understand why *I* should be forced to labor because of their "stupid and uneducated" nature - why should they be able to impose upon me?

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If you don't like who's running for office, run yourself or support candidates who you prefer.

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That implies that I support the idea of telling other people what to do, as long as the orders are ones I agree with.

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The more I write about it, the more I like the system.

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Lots of tyrants like tyrannical systems.

[elwoodblues]

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Lots of tyrants like tyrannical systems

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Over-use of hyperbole, which you are prone to do, weakens your arguments considerably.