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#12
11-25-2005, 01:12 PM
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Re: Push or Fold
Cheers. I see your points (and am in a minority of one!) but I don't see the 'risk' of a call over a push. Probably the rest of my chips are going in on the flop after the rest of his chips are going in on the flop and I haven't made my life any easier but there doesn't seem much benefit to a push if you think he's going to fold and with a raise of 1000 at those stack sizes I would be very surprised if he folded to a push.
And you're right, I'm crippled with only 10xBB in the unlikely situation that the flop persuades me to fold my JJ, but my thinking is that if his call is inevitable, there is no additional benefit to a push. 
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#13
11-25-2005, 01:21 PM
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Re: Push or Fold
[ QUOTE ]
but my thinking is that if his call is inevitable, there is no additional benefit to a push. [/ QUOTE ] The problem here is that his call is not inevitable. With anything less than AA KK QQ he could fold preflop to your all in (I think your stack is enough of a threat to him that he won't make a loose call on pot odds alone. He would be all but crippled). If he doesn't fold with lesser holdings, you're quite pleased. However if you just call and he has the same lesser holdings -- AK AQ AJ AT TT 99 88, he can look at the flop, see if he has hit his overcard/trips, and then decide if he wants to try to break you or fold. You are expecting him to fold to the push, and are quite pleased to see him call and turn over any cards but our three deadly friends. So you are forcing him into making bad decisions with weaker hands preflop, which MAY fold, but COULD beat you if you allow them to see more cards. Cheers
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#14
11-25-2005, 01:51 PM
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Re: Push or Fold
This is a push.
First, his range isn't wide but is reasonable. You raise to <3BBs in LMP on his BB? He could be reraising with medium to big pairs (88+) and stuff like AK/AQ or worse, or a total resteal, depending. He's already reraised once from his blinds so it's not likely that he's the type to just "see a flop" (though I wouldn't consider anything in just 20 hands to be very significant). And given that range and his 2.5:1 odds, he has to call your push with a large number of hands that you beat. Seeing a flop is terrible. All it will do is allow worse hands to correctly get away and let race hands catch up before they put more money in. Underpairs my worriedly go away, garbage hands may outflop you, and race hands (AQ ish) may either get away on a raggedy flop or get all your money when they hit (I mean, can you fold on an A high flop? I'm not sure). Yeah he has QQ+ sometimes here and would play them like this, but you're stuck paying them off. Without some crazy read to peg him only on hands that have you smoked, you've gotta jam it in here. Everett
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#16
11-25-2005, 05:23 PM
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Re: Push or Fold
No one just folds straight up?
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#17
11-25-2005, 06:13 PM
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Re: Push or Fold
I would never fold jacks pre flop unless there was a raise then re raise all in depending on the amount. But I am never folding pre flop without some kind of crazy action before me.
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#18
11-25-2005, 07:04 PM
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Re: Push or Fold
[ QUOTE ]
Villain is 33/16, but only after 20 hands. Seems very aggressive though - he has already reraised once PF on his blinds. This previous hand resulted in him taking down the pot right there, so I'm not sure of his reraising hand range. Do I just lay this down and pick a better spot? Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx UTG (t675) UTG+1 (t2595) UTG+2 (t1420) MP1 (t2735) MP2 (t1485) Hero (t2535) CO (t3015) Button (t6990) SB (t4370) BB (t3820) Preflop: Hero is MP3 with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t400</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to t1000</font>, Hero.... [/ QUOTE ] I push back, especially given your read. I don't quite like your initial reraise, I would have made it at least 450, and probably 600. 400 is just a tad on the low side for me.
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#19
11-25-2005, 07:08 PM
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Re: Push or Fold
[ QUOTE ]
This is a push. First, his range isn't wide but is reasonable. You raise to <3BBs in LMP on his BB? He could be reraising with medium to big pairs (88+) and stuff like AK/AQ or worse, or a total resteal, depending. He's already reraised once from his blinds so it's not likely that he's the type to just "see a flop" (though I wouldn't consider anything in just 20 hands to be very significant). And given that range and his 2.5:1 odds, he has to call your push with a large number of hands that you beat. Seeing a flop is terrible. All it will do is allow worse hands to correctly get away and let race hands catch up before they put more money in. Underpairs my worriedly go away, garbage hands may outflop you, and race hands (AQ ish) may either get away on a raggedy flop or get all your money when they hit (I mean, can you fold on an A high flop? I'm not sure). Yeah he has QQ+ sometimes here and would play them like this, but you're stuck paying them off. Without some crazy read to peg him only on hands that have you smoked, you've gotta jam it in here. Everett [/ QUOTE ] I concur.
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