so yesterday i just kept hitting the call button - Page 4

microbet · #31 12-01-2005, 08:47 PM

I've never really done this analysis myself (I'm such a n00b), so maybe someone who has like not let their brain atrophy for 15 years can check see if I'm right. Sorry, can't really show work on this one.

I just assumed Button will call with 66+, ATs+, AJo+ and SB will call with 22+, A2s+, A3o+, KTs+, KJo+, QJs and then, the question is, what will CO push with and BB call with if they are both Game Theory experts.

I got:

CO pushes 22+, A3o+, A2s+, KTo, K9s, QJo, Q9s, JTo, J8s+, T8x+, 98s

BB calls 33+, A6o+, A2s+, KJo, KTs+, QJs

golfcchs · #32 12-01-2005, 08:52 PM

These are both 22's. Are any of these hands the type of hands you are advocating a call in?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Hero (t620)
CO (t680)
Button (t1065)
SB (t640)
BB (t330)
UTG (t1710)
UTG+1 (t1510)
MP1 (t1445)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
3 folds, Hero raises to t150, CO reraises all in t680, Button calls t680, 3 folds, Hero fold.

Flop: (t905) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)

Turn: (t905) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)

River: (t905) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)

Final Pot: t905

Results in white below: 
CO has Kh As (high card, ace).
Button has Jd Ac (high card, ace).
Outcome: CO wins t905. 

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Hero (t1560)
SB (t870)
BB (t1720)
UTG (t1185)
MP (t1275)
CO (t1390)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
3 folds, Hero raises to t150, SB raises all in t870, 1 fold, Hero calls t720.

Flop: (t945) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)

Turn: (t945) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)

River: (t945) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)

Final Pot: t945

Results in white below: 
SB has Qc Ah (high card, ace).
Hero has 7d 7h (three of a kind, sevens).
Outcome: Hero wins t945. 

On this hand SB said, "fold, don't steal" When I replied that I had 77 and he did not say anything I took it to mean I was a 50/50 at worse.

#33 12-01-2005, 09:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I've never really done this analysis myself (I'm such a n00b), so maybe someone who has like not let their brain atrophy for 15 years can check see if I'm right. Sorry, can't really show work on this one.

I just assumed Button will call with 66+, ATs+, AJo+ and SB will call with 22+, A2s+, A3o+, KTs+, KJo+, QJs and then, the question is, what will CO push with and BB call with if they are both Game Theory experts.

I got:

CO pushes 22+, A3o+, A2s+, KTo, K9s, QJo, Q9s, JTo, J8s+, T8x+, 98s

BB calls 33+, A6o+, A2s+, KJo, KTs+, QJs

[/ QUOTE ]It's a bit hard to follow which hands we're talking about, but assuming it's Durron's first hand, given these calling ranges, CO's break even pushing range is (so SNGPT says): 22+,A5o+,A2s+,KJo+,KTs+,QTs+,J9s+,T9s. That's just break even: minimum edge = 0.0%

tigerite · #34 12-01-2005, 09:10 PM

I thought A6o was close, but oh well, people never believe me. And that was without doing any calcs as well.

From the button it's a push, for sure.

citanul · #35 12-01-2005, 09:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I thought A6o was close, but oh well, people never believe me. And that was without doing any calcs as well.

From the button it's a push, for sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

to be fair, what you said wasn't "i think it's close"

what you said was:

[ QUOTE ]
That's fair enough.. a CO push is often a steal, but a decent player shouldnt be pushing down to A6o here I think, so it'd be a strange type to call here (which obviously he was - something like a LAG or a TAG who doesn't quite get ICM, or whatever)

[/ QUOTE ]

well, it's close, if you make all the players behind call with exactly the hands they should call with if the cards are face up and they don't have to worry about players behind them.

it's not close if you don't give them such ridiculous super powers. the range implied by knowing the cards is way, way too wide to be calling pushes with otherwise. consequently, yes, a good player should be pushing the A6o, i think.

c

microbet · #36 12-01-2005, 09:23 PM

That's simular, as we say back in Indiana, but not exactly the same. I set the min. edge to zero also. There is some other setting about discounting the blinds or something, but maybe my version doesn't have that. Mine is v1.18b.

The question though is about solving for both ranges at the same time. BB's calling range is not an assumption. The idea is to find the Nash equilibrium. Disclaimer: At best, I just barely have a clue what the hell I'm talking about.

45suited · #37 12-01-2005, 09:49 PM

Citanul, I think your idea was brilliant. This can be especially useful in an MTT, where more time is available to observe. I played one the other night where I limped with JJ on the button after 4 other limpers with the strong belief that one of the blinds would push, based upon their play up to that point. Hand shown down: T6o. Good job.

I have been limping with good hands after limpers if I think that there are aggressive players in the blinds who are likely to pull a PVS. As the herd gets more creative, so should we.

kamelion44 · #38 12-01-2005, 09:51 PM

I tried that a few times at the 200s, and all 4 times they had AA...when you're running bad???

#39 12-01-2005, 11:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
That's simular, as we say back in Indiana, but not exactly the same. I set the min. edge to zero also. There is some other setting about discounting the blinds or something, but maybe my version doesn't have that. Mine is v1.18b.

The question though is about solving for both ranges at the same time. BB's calling range is not an assumption. The idea is to find the Nash equilibrium. Disclaimer: At best, I just barely have a clue what the hell I'm talking about.

[/ QUOTE ]
I understand BB's range isn't a given. But, if you think you've reached an equilibrium, you ought to be able to get CO's pushing range by plugging in BB's derived calling range.

Yes, it would be cool if SNGPT would determine the equilibrium for us. I've spent lots of time with trial and error trying to find the equilibriums (not for this problem). I think it's a worthwhile exercise, even if it is time consuming, because the answers aren't always what you (at least what I) expect from the initial runs.

I don't understand quite what is going on with blind discounting. If you could explain it to me, I would be grateful.

golfcchs · #40 12-02-2005, 01:11 AM

Just wondering?