PokerRoom 10+1. Smart Play or Donkey Play

[DONTUSETHIS]

Just wondering what you guys think about this. Do you think this was smart or way too aggressive.

Pokerroom 10+1. Here are the three relavent stacks in this hand.

Button 10,500.
SB (Hero) 5,800
BB 815.

200/400 Blinds with no ante.

I am in small blind with J8s.

Button (10,500) limps, Hero in Sb (5,6000) limps, BB raises all in for 815. Button thinks for a few seconds and calls. I raise all in for 5,600 out of small blind.

Fist off it was most likely a mistake to limp after the button limps with such a marginal hand with the small blind being so short. After I had already done that, The pot now contained 2430 and it was 400 for me to call. I know that now I cannot throw this hand away, but my thinking was that given the button's actions he most likely did not have a big hand and by raising I could isolate the BB. What do you guys think of this.

Why couldnt he have a big hand? I see people limp with monsters on the button all the time. I dont like your play at all.

very bad play

[Matador225]

If the button is at all a thinking player he is going to call with a lot of marginal hands. Your completion in the SB is a strong indication that you don't have a monster. There is also a chance that he limped a big hand on the button, but that is pretty unlikely. If you think the button may not pick up on the fact that your SB completion indicates a marginal hand this play might be +EV. Otherwise I prefer calling.

[PFrese]

Not sure I see the value of isolating with J8s. You are barely 50/50 against a random hand. All you are really doing is making it easier on the SS to triple up. I usually want a much stronger hand here in order to isolate like this.

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If the button is at all a thinking player he is going to call with a lot of marginal hands.

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bad play

[jstoc]

To me it seems like a smart play. Firstly, let's assume that at least 60% of the time the SB is going to raise all in, which seems reasonable enough, to account for the times where he has absolutely trash. Then if the Hero or Button or thinking players, they can simply limp in with marginal hands, knowing that it's going to be raise regardless, and perhaps grab an extra BB in the process.

Now in this case I would have no problem limping with a very strong hand if I was the hero, because I'm pretty sure that the SB is going to push, and if the Button calls that push, I'm gaining more chips then I would have probably if I had simply raised myself. Now ignoring that, I think given the situation the push is still a good play, even if he is 50/50 with the button he only has to call 400 more, meaning he is getting over 6-1 on his money. Also for the button to call, he would have to commit at over his half his stack.

What thinking is going to commit over half his stack on a marginal hand in this situation? There seems to be little reason to do so, unless he really likes gambling. So, in essence the only thing that makes this a bad play is if you observed the button limping in with strong hands, in particular on the button, but also in general. If there hasn't been a history of this in past, I considered it to be a +EV play.

you seem to be forgetting that a lot of donks play at this level. I also believe you are over analyzing the situation since you have no idea what 2 cards button is playing. who's to say that they hadn't came to the same conclusion you did about the SB going to push and thought BB might raise to isolate. ahhhhhhh...

Seriously though, this is a horrible play. Button's AJ may decide he wants to race with what looks to be a pocket pair from you (since side pot is now heads up with you), and calls and is pleasantly surpised that he has you dominated.

don't ever trust the donks to make the right play.

I think an EV discussion has to include more than the dynamics of the hand. Namely, the differences in payout between 1st, 2nd, 3rd. Also, how good are these two players? Is the short stack weak, or is he dangerous? What are the chances of winning the tourney heads up with maybe a big chip disadvantage, to being short stack, fighting the same situation with less chips?

For me this is a call and see the flop. J8s is not an iso hand, not when losing means being short stack or out (if button calls, which i dont think he is).

[DONTUSETHIS]

I think some of you are looking at this in a wrong sense. The reason that I am isolating here with J8s has nothing to do with the fact that i have J8. Without doing the exact calculations, I think it greatly increases my chances to win the pot against one random hand instead of two random hands. I thought that the only way the button would call me is if he was trapping with a big hand. You are committed to this pot after the BB all-in raise. Why not greatly improve your odds of winning this pot by forcing the button out.