The phenomenon surrounding players calling all in vs med sized bets

detroitplayer · #1 01-22-2005, 03:41 AM

This is something I have noticed quite a bit at NL tables...

Players on a draw seem to be more apt to call an all-in, hoping to hit, than they are to calling a medium-large raise.

IE, pot`s been raised to about 6 pre flop, two diamonds on the flop, player holds 2 diamonds. Say I have top two pair, I honestly sometimes feel a pot sized bet is going to fold a flush draw before an all-in would.

MicroBob · #2 01-22-2005, 03:43 AM

How do you know that the players folding to your medium-size bet were on a draw?

detroitplayer · #3 01-22-2005, 04:03 AM

Good question. I only know when they tell me. I always chat it up and get people to talk about their hands. Obviously this doesn't happen all the time, but a lot of the time after big bets at the smaller NL tables I can get a guy talking... "damn, I almost made that call. had a good flush draw"... stuff like that.

WSOPWinner2005 · #4 01-22-2005, 04:09 AM

Try playing M-F 9:00 AM EST - 4:00 PM EST and see if you see the same type of behavior as often. It's a friday night bro, enjoy it !

Meanwhile I was up $250 in PLO8, back to back hands I have 2nd nut flush draws on un paired boards and NUT low draw (2 on board) with no kill low cards both times and I drop $225 in 2 hands... OUCH!! Talk about standard devations rates being high.

So I decide to go to a CHEAP Tourney and see what happens, play the $5 speed tourney lol ... Doing well knocked a couple out.. come up to AA, know the guy directly behind me has a strong hand as he has played straight forward poker the whole time and raises 3.5 X BB ... I push ... MP calls and button (the OR) calls as well ... up against J6, KK, and my AA ... Flop comes K54... O.K. I have a 2 outter, I can PRAY...

TURN - K

LOL

I'm definately done till Sunday!! (Listening to my inner voice this time)

WSOPWinner2005 · #5 01-22-2005, 04:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Good question. I only know when they tell me. I always chat it up and get people to talk about their hands. Obviously this doesn't happen all the time, but a lot of the time after big bets at the smaller NL tables I can get a guy talking... "damn, I almost made that call. had a good flush draw"... stuff like that.

[/ QUOTE ]

And you believe them? Do you have any idea how many times I have told players I had nothing when I had sets, flushes when I had two pr, nothing when I had quads, you name it ..

Don't ever believe what a poker player says about their cards unless you see them - LOL. I have seen people called out by people who pull up hand histories that have lied so many times it is not even funny!

detroitplayer · #6 01-22-2005, 05:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Good question. I only know when they tell me. I always chat it up and get people to talk about their hands. Obviously this doesn't happen all the time, but a lot of the time after big bets at the smaller NL tables I can get a guy talking... "damn, I almost made that call. had a good flush draw"... stuff like that.

[/ QUOTE ]

And you believe them? Do you have any idea how many times I have told players I had nothing when I had sets, flushes when I had two pr, nothing when I had quads, you name it ..

Don't ever believe what a poker player says about their cards unless you see them - LOL. I have seen people called out by people who pull up hand histories that have lied so many times it is not even funny!

[/ QUOTE ]

For some reason I tend to believe them when they say what they folded to my raise... not so much when they say what they raised me out of the hand with.

I think it's different when someone says "damn, you really had me thinking on that one. I was going to take my chances with an opened ender" when I raise them out of a pot, compared to "good fold, I had a boat" when they raise me out of a pot.

I think people tend to lie more when trying to hide bluffs, but they don't have the same amount of pressure to lie to say what they folded.

Again, this is just 1-2 NL / $100 buy in.

RollaJ · #7 01-22-2005, 12:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Players on a draw seem to be more apt to call an all-in, hoping to hit, than they are to calling a medium-large raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are correct.

There is somewhat sound reasoning though

If the pot is $20 preflop and you both have $100 left it can play out in a few ways
You A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Him Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Now if the flop comes: T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Scenario 1) He bets 10 you make it 20 he of course calls
Scenario 2)He bets 10 you make it 100 he folds
Scenario 3)He bets 10 you make it 50 he very likely may move in on you figuring You didnt raise pf, so prob just top pair, He has an over card a flush draw and a back door str8 draw,And may even catch running trips or running 2 pair, Good chance you may fold ........ All that considered plus his odds of drawing out on you make it not such a bad play.
Now In that scenario If I were you Id make it 30 as I think that is ideal (granted from a pure EV point of view you wouldnt mind betting 40 and having him move all in because you are about a 5% favorite, but most people dont like risking their whole stack with such a slight edge, even in cash games). If you make it 35 the 2 buttons that pop up are call 25 (and face a 65 bet on the turn when your odds are way down) or raise to 60 (pointless) so his choices are going to be all in for 90 more or fold.
Basically in NL you want to manipulate your opponents actions with your bets, In my mind the best tool a good player has is using his bet size to control his opponents.

Ok..... I just went off on a tangent, maybe this will help, maybe not...... basically its a lot easier to go all in with 2 cards to come, than call a big bet while facing another if the first card doesnt help [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

detroitplayer · #8 01-22-2005, 03:14 PM

I can see your reasoning in that. However, I am always cautious of making a big raise after the flop (hoping the turn misses him) and him thinking he's now "pot comitted", and will just call anything on the turn regardless if he hit or miss.

Although it's been profitable to me in the past, it really bothers me when people make dumb calls just because they already have money in the pot. I've seen people call allins after the flop COMPLETELY missed them simply because they put in $5 pre flop. And I honestly cannot say that it seems these dumb moves end up catching on the turn or river like 50% of the time. Blows my mind.

BradleyT · #9 01-22-2005, 03:18 PM

If the pot is $20 PF and you each have $100 you're either way underfunded or it was raised PF.

RollaJ · #10 01-22-2005, 04:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I am always cautious of making a big raise after the flop (hoping the turn misses him) and him thinking he's now "pot comitted", and will just call anything on the turn regardless if he hit or miss.

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Thats the benefit of NL/PL to be able to manipulate opponents into making bad choices. You have to raise there (at least most of the time) to protect your hand. If on the turn you figure that he hasnt gotten any help thats great for you if he'll call a $65 bet when he he is a 3-1 dog

[ QUOTE ]
Although it's been profitable to me in the past, it really bothers me when people make dumb calls just because they already have money in the pot. I've seen people call allins after the flop COMPLETELY missed them simply because they put in $5 pre flop. And I honestly cannot say that it seems these dumb moves end up catching on the turn or river like 50% of the time. Blows my mind.

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I am guessing you are rather new to the game, at least NL. But keep track.... in the long run this (horrible calls) is where a lot of the money comes from..... The rest comes from plain old bad calls [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
The other types of wins and losses like AA vs. KK all in, and bottom set vs. 2 pair all in will equal out over the long run, as it is usually almost impossible to fold them when not playing in a deep stack game. And Party NL are almost never deep stack games

In response to Bradley Yes I was making the assumption that it was raised pf [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] (We'll assume Q9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] raised it so that I was not exactly wrong in what I wrote, and it gives more credibility to Q9 betting out)