Turn Action: Donked by a Trickster

[Entity]

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Why not just pop villian on the turn for a raise? Looks like he would call it.

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This subject is very complicated. Let me give you an expert example on this topic.

You limp UTG with A8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and the next guy raises. Three players coldcall and the BB makes it 3-bets. Everyone calls. Six to the flop for 18 SB.

Flop: 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

BB checks to you and you bet. UTG+1 raises. Everyone folds to the BB who makes it 3-bets. You cap and UTG+1 folds.

Turn (14 BB): A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

BB bets, You Call

River (16 BB): 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

BB bets, You raise, BB 3-bets and You fold


If you can understand this hand, you have this game down to a T. I'll give more thoughts on OP hand later. The main considerations are the villians ability to bluff and the pot size. As you can see though from the example I provided, hand reading is VERY important as well.

In the OP's hand, the villian's most likely holding is Jx. Is there any point in raising him if he does hold something like JT in a 5 BB pot?

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I wouldn't raise the river in your example. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Rob

[Shillx]

I'm sorry to hijack your thread Pedro, but the point was to show that it is sometimes better to just call in these spots even when the pot is large. This is a made up hand, but the only logical hand to give the BB is AA when he 3-bets the river.

The flop play is pretty interesting too. When you are up agiainst 2 PFR's, the chances are good then one of them holds A-big and the other a big pair. We bet the flop and hope that UTG+1 raises in order to force the BB's AK or AQ or whatever with 2 cold. Our A8 would really like to free up those 2 extra outs those times that UTG+1 has QQ or JJ or something. When the BB makes it 3-bets, it becomes apparent that he is on a big pair, and now we cap to see if UTG+1 will fold AK-AT if that he what he has. Obviously it won't always work, or you will run into two overpairs, but that is the idea. We have a good amount of equity with our straight draw, but we would really like an extra 2 outs in this huge pot.

Anyway, let's say that the BB is on AA-QQ when he cpas the flop. After we look at the A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] on 4th street, he is now a 12:1 favorite to have a worse hand then we do. Only the case AA can beat us, so we have to put a raise in somewhere. If we are going to do it, it should be on the river.

If we raise now and have the worst hand, we have pay 3 BB just to see if we can make our straight. If he does have KK or QQ then we risk losing him where he will be more inclined to payoff a river raise. If we raise now, he knows that he is going to have to put in another 2 BB to showdown. If we call now and raise the river, it is just one more BB to see what we have. It would be tough to resist when the river doesn't appear to help anyone. The BB doesn't know that we have an ace by the way we played this hand (we might have 88 or 99 or 87s) so figure that he would bet all of his hands on this 4th street card that probably didn't help us.

Brad

[DeathDonkey]

You know how people have been saying you overthink things? This is what they are talking about. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

To OP: At 5/10 I would raise now, because they don't fold. If your villain will pay off with any pair, then raise now. Against a tougher opponent I agree waiting is better, but I still might raise the turn to cover the times I raise the turn with KQ high there.

-DeathDonkey

[Kumubou]

It's 5-handed, not 6 -- UTG with 6 people I probably let A6s go, but in MP to start I may or may not play it (depending on what kind of mood I am in, the phase of the moon, crap like that).

Raise now if you think he is semi-bluffing (and is on a draw that will pay to see the river but not showdown if they brick), raise the river if you think he will bluff again on the river.

-K

[tyler_cracker]

Let me make sure i understand this line.

I guess 5-handed it's pretty unlikely that the case A is out, and that if it is it's matched with a better kicker than ours.

When the A comes on the turn, villain is inclined to believe his T (or maybe his 8) is good, and so bets out. If we raise here, he will probably fold a worse hand, but 3-bet a better hand, so that's no good. By flat calling, we hope to induce another bet on the river, and then we raise, because our river raise has a better chance of getting called than a raise on the turn (and even if it doesn't, we win one more BB).

Are we folding to a river 3-bet? If so, we could save 1 BB by raising on the turn and getting 3-bet there and folding. But we're probably ahead.

Is this the right idea? Did i miss anything?

[deception5]

You call because it's heads up, you have a monster which the bb probably doesn't give you credit for, the pot is small, and it's extremely likely the villian has a better hand. He's aggressive and either bluffing or semi-bluffing so you want to squeeze some extra bet out of him.

If you raise you allow him to get away cheaply.

[aces_dad]

You mean extremely unlikely here?

and it's extremely likely the villian has a better hand