Major Problems with cardroom staff and management at Caesar's Indiana.

[purnell]

I played 5/10 limit for about ten hours last night at Caesar's Indiana Riverboat Casino. The new poker room is very nice, and the staff was very friendly, but there are some major problems. I am posting a copy of the email I sent to them this morning. ( And no, I am not steaming, as I ran good and got up around 25 BB's before I got tired and weak and a tough LAG (at leat I think he was tough, he was definitely LAG) got position on me, ran hot, and got the best of everybody at the table, including me. I lost about half of my winnings before I wised up and got out of there, but hey, I got outplayed and I knew it. C'est la vie.)

Anyway, here is the letter, in which are described the serious problems to which I refer. <--- -[img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] sorry, my dad's an english teacher-

"Dear sir or madam:

Your new poker room is very nice, and your staff is very friendly, but I observed some serious problems on Thursday night/Friday Morning April 7th-8th, at table 19.

1) Dealers: A few of them were quite good, but many were obviously inexperienced and poorly trained. the specific problems I observed were:

a) Throwing the cards way too high, so that anyone of a mind to sit low in his seat could see others' hole cards as they were dealt

b) Inability to read the board and accurately determine the winning hand without help from the experienced players at the table

c) Sloppy dealing- flipping cards over and exposing them

d) Inability to tell me the amount of money in the pot.

2) Management: there was only one incident worth reporting, but it was absolutely inexcusable:

A very large man who sat down late in the evening or early morning was fond of exposing his hole cards in the middle of a betting round. Once, he did it in a 3-handed pot after one of his opponents called, but the other had not yet acted. Worse yet, there was a floorperson standing right there watching it happen, AND NOT ONE WORD WAS SAID! In my opinion, this floorperson is incompetent.

There is a very good book published by 2+2, entitled "The Professional Poker Dealer's Handbook". Perhaps you could use it to help train your dealers. (No, I do not work for 2+2 or have any relationship with them other than using their very active discussion forums at www.twoplustwo.com.

Be assured that I will be posting a copy of this letter on said board on the forum entitled "B&M Cardrooms". You are, of course, free to defend yourself on this same forum.

Sincerely, Mike Purnell"

BTW, has anyone else seen this kind of stuff lately?

[Bulldog]

[ QUOTE ]
d) Inability to tell me the amount of money in the pot.


[/ QUOTE ]

Do you have the right to this info? I've heard players ask the dealer to "spread out the pot" so they can see the chips in there, but I've never heard a pot count requested or given.

[purnell]

"Do you have the right to this info? "

Maybe not. I think I have it from a reliable source (Mason Malmuth) that in some rooms the dealers are required to state the number of players and the size of the pot on each street. I'm looking for it now, and will cite it later or retract my statement.

[steamboatin]

I assume from your post, that you never played poker at Caesar's In when the card room was smaller and in the middle.

If you had played there then, under the last poker room manager, you would be so grateful for the current state of affairs that you would go shake Billy's hand and offer to buy him dinner.

My buddy Paul chopped 1st & 2nd in the $500+25 tourney and while the final table was being played, I shook Billy's hand and congratulated him on the good job He was doing with the poker room.

If you knew how it was, you would appreciate how it is and be very hopeful about what it might become.

[purnell]

" I think i have it from... Mason Malmuth..."

Poker essays, vol. 3, page 161, in a footnote at the bottom of the page.

"Sometimes the dealer is required to state the number of players or the size of the pot" (emphasis mine)

Obviously this does not show that I am entitled to this information at Caesar's Indiana, so I am still retracting the statement. It is even possible that the dealers are instructed not to count the pot.

[purnell]

I'll agree that the new room and management are better than the old ones. But do you really think this is tolerable?

"...fond of exposing his hole cards in the middle of a betting round. Once, he did it in a 3-handed pot after one of his opponents called, but the other had not yet acted. Worse yet, there was a floorperson standing right there watching it happen, AND NOT ONE WORD WAS SAID!"

[winchips]

i just posted about my trip to trump (indiana) and how there was someone at the table who would say what he had after he folded, the dealer never said a word and it happened several times. For example if the board came up 77j, he would say i folded the winning hand, i had a 7.
I was shocked the dealers never said anything,
They were also sloppy with the deal

[steamboatin]

I guess that I don't worry about this as much as some. I kida like them goofy old guys screwing up, it is often profitable.

I damn sure don't want a bunch of Poker Nazi floormen waiting to pounce. The floor should not intervene until it becomes a problem.

Sometimes I don't communicate my thoughts as well as I would like. I would rather a few things slip by from time to time than have the floor constantly messing with the fish.

You don't give enough information about this situation for me to know how to respond. Was this just a goofy old fish, or was He shooting an angle?

If He is just a goofy old fish, leave him alone but if He is an angle shooter, then that is a completely different circumstance.

Angle shooters are bad for the game and need to be stopped, goofy old fish need to be made to feel welcome.

[memphis_aces]

Exactly steamboatin....

From what he wrote, this doesn't strike me as a huge problem. Nearly everywhere I've played a decent-length session there have been instances of dealer errors. Misreads, etc are unfortunate, but something you're going to expect in most rooms if you sit long enough.

Regarding the high-tosses. I've seen this and it doesn't really bother me. Dealers have to throw cards for hours on end, days at a time. They get bored I'm sure. I know if I dealt I'd be looking for somewhat more creative ways to deal in order to amuse myself. I've had several dealers who threw the cards in pretty big arcs (12" or so off the table) and it never bugged me.... I thought it was pretty cool actually. If I saw someone slouching down trying to get a peek I'd take it up with that person and then the dealer, but TMK it's never been a problem.

And back to the old guy exposing his cards. If he's only done it once or twice I'd not worry about it. If he did it constantly I'd likely step aside and talk to the flloor (not in front of him).... then let the floor address the guy. This should be the best way to inform him of his misdoings while minimiizing the damage to the table's "vibe".

While there is something to be said for a perfectly run table and room, there's also something to be said for just relaxing and enjoying what you've got. Unless the actions of others is seriously costing you money, I'd just let it slide and not worry about it.

[tylerdurden]

In every room I've played in, the dealer will *usually* mention how many players remain when action closes for each round. I've NEVER heard a dealer mention how much is in the pot, and I've never seen anyone even ask (talking limit here). Dealers WILL count the pot to themselves, but usually stop keeping track once they've raked the maximum.