This tourney situation gets me all nauseated.

Tyler Durden · #1 08-13-2003, 12:18 PM

Stars NL tourney. First orbit, blinds at 10 and 20.

I get red Aces UTG and raise to T60. I get coldcalled by FOUR players, and the blinds call also. So we see the flop SEVEN handed, which is WAY more than I'd hoped for.

The flop comes T-5-3, all[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. I have the A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], as I stated earlier. What's a good plan of attack on the flop?

Results later.

Magician · #2 08-13-2003, 12:24 PM

I would have raised more pre-flop. But that's behind us.

I would bet the pot on the flop and see what happens.

Tyler Durden · #3 08-13-2003, 12:27 PM

I was thinking about a raise to T80, which is my norm, but then I don't get any action. In this case I got too much action.

cferejohn · #4 08-13-2003, 01:28 PM

Ick. On the other hand you have a monster draw. Of course that may be just the thing that costs you all your chips. In any case, I don't see how you can give up on this here. I think your choices are bet the pot, shove all-in immediately, or go for a check-raise. Let's consider them one at a time (I'm assuming here that you have ~T1500, since that's the starting amount and it just started):

Betting the pot. 400 would be about a pot sized bet. This of course may take it down. Problem is you might get raised all-in (which is really their only reasonable option at this point, any other raise commits you anyway). Said all-in raise could be a flopped flush, a set, or something like KT with the K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Once they did that, you'd be getting about 2:1 to call off your last ~1000. Given that you know that any diamond is an out, and also that an A or the backdoor straight (slim chance, but lets throw it in there) may also get you out, plus the fact that you may be ahead right now, I think this is a call. However, you've forced yourself into a situation where you have to call off all your chips with what may be a draw.

Shoving all-in immediately - More likely to win you the pot immediately, since the lone K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] probably isn't going to call. Problem is its a classic 'only better hands will call'. You're going to get calls from a made flush or a set. It does have the advantage that it might get trips or a lower flush to fold, depending on the player.

Check-raising all-in - Problem is it requires someone else to bet out. On the other hand, if it just gets checked around, you get a free card to make the nuts and you can feel pretty good about your hand being good since a flopped flush or a set is almost certainly going to bet out on this flop. Also, you may get a bet from an overaggressive K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T or Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T. The check-raise will be pretty scary since whoever is betting would not have the nuts by definition.

Good and bad things about all three. I personally like checking it, check raising all-in a pot sized bet, and just calling if someone does something silly like bet 40. If it is checked around or mini-bet, I make a pot sized bet or go all-in on the turn.

Now I'll go see what happened.

Kurn, son of Mogh · #5 08-13-2003, 01:31 PM

Bet the pot. In all likelihood you have the best hand, plus you have multiple outs if you're behind.

Biggest possible overpair + nut flush draw + it's so early I have more than enough time to win back my buy-in in a side game. I bet the pot and I want to be raised all-in.

Magician · #6 08-13-2003, 01:38 PM

What concerns me with checking is if he checks, it's checked around, blank on the turn - harder to get paid off.

Or worse, it's checked around on the flop and he makes his flush on the turn - then everyone will shut down.

Thoughts?

allenciox · #7 08-13-2003, 01:46 PM

Actually, this is a great situation for you. I would check, with the intent to check-raise all-in a pot size bet or less, to call a bet somewhat more than the pot size, and to fold to anything significantly more than the size of the pot.

If it gets checked around, noone has more than a small pair (unlike to triple up at the turn), and you can safely bet on the turn. If someone already has a flush, he or she will bet big because they want to knock out a possible singleton diamond ace.

Anybody with any pair is likely to bet something in this situation since there are no big cards on the flop, so the opportunity to bet again should occur.

cferejohn · #8 08-13-2003, 01:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What concerns me with checking is if he checks, it's checked around, blank on the turn - harder to get paid off.

Or worse, it's checked around on the flop and he makes his flush on the turn - then everyone will shut down.

[/ QUOTE ]

True. Good point. I feel like this pot is big enough (about a third the size of his stack) that winning it now is acceptable. Also, if the 4th diamond does come in, he still *might* get a call from the K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or from some nitwit who was slowplaying K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and by golly isn't going to give up on it now.

In any case, I certainly think it is close, but my goal here is to a) get all my chips in while b) putting someone else on a big decision (as opposed to calling them off with what may be a draw). Seems like the check-raise is the best way to do that.

Of course, the final problem is that someone might just shove all-in. This is a tougher call than someone coming over the top of a raise, since you are just getting ~1.5:1 and if they have a made flush calling is a mistake (especially since they have 2 of your outs).

Tyler Durden · #9 08-13-2003, 02:06 PM

I shoved all-in and made the classic mistake of not realizing till right after I pushed the button, I'm unlikely to be called by hands that I can beat.

So I got called by one player, he had a set of fives. I spiked another diamond on the turn and the river didn't pair the board so I was in good shape.

Thanks for the responses.

Kurn, son of Mogh · #10 08-13-2003, 02:37 PM

This is a tougher call than someone coming over the top of a raise, since you are just getting ~1.5:1 and if they have a made flush calling is a mistake (especially since they have 2 of your outs).

Here's why I prefer making a pot-sized bet. You'd actually be getting 1.8-1 from the pot on an all in if you made a pot-size bet (420). I think if you raise all-in, you run the risk of being called only by hands that are ahead of you now.

If you bet the pot, a made flush isn't the only hand they'd come over the top with. Kd Qx, 55, 53s from the blinds, JJ, TT are all possible. You're getting proper odds from the range of hands that would raise you all-in.