Play this hand against me

[James282]

Party 30/60 10 handed. You know who I am and I know who ou are. A very loose player limps UTG+1. You raise black Queens behind him and I three-bet. The rest of the table is pretty tight, they all fold. Limper cold calls and you cap.

Flop comes 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Sucky limper checks, you bet, I call, limper calls.

Turn is a T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Limper checks, you bet, and now I raise. Limper folds. Your play? Opponent in this hand thought that 3 betting was the right play. Now I fourbet, what's the play now?
-James

[Steve Giufre]

Fold. His three bet sucks.

[James282]

So you fold to the initial raise, or are you calling down if you don't three-bet?
-James

[Steve Giufre]

[ QUOTE ]
So you fold to the initial raise, or are you calling down if you don't three-bet?
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

Im not sure, but it's a little closer than your opponent and everybody else thinks it is. I rarely fold in this spot, and usually its an auto call down for me. It would depend a lot on our past history, what you thought of my play, etc. But he should know that you arnt try to shake him off a better hand here. Say you would three bet AK. AQs and 99-AA preflop. I dont think you'll push AK or AQ like this because you cant except him to lay down a better hand in a pot this size. Postflop lets say you'll play 1010-AA the way you played it here. If thats close to true he is in bad shape and his three bet is really bad. I cant say what I would do unless I had the Queens in my hand, but I'm leaning towards calling it down and hating it.

[andyfox]

You know, it's an auto call-down for me too and I think it's a leak. Maybe it's just that the hands stick in my memory, as hands where we lose with a big overpair to a bigger overpair do, but I have a hard time throwing them away when I "know" I'm beat. (After all, he might have jacks or the other queens right? Feh . . .) Poster says we know him, but I don't know if he's capable of making a play here. But against players who absolutely wouldn't be this frisky with a hand that queens can beat, an auto-call down must be a leak, no?

So ,FWIW, I too just call the turn raise and check-call the river.

[James282]

Hey andy, I think calling down in situations like this is generally a leak as well. Maybe not against me, because I am capable of making a move against an opponent that I think is "good enough" to fold for the final bet on the river, but against most "tight aggressive" but relatively straightforward players(which make up the overwhelming majority of 2+2ers), I think paying off in situations like this is a pretty big leak. Your average 2+2er isn't betting the river with 88 or JJ hoping to get a better hand to fold because they know in these situations a "good player" will almost always call down with a better hand, but fold a worse one. Similarly, most average twoplustwoers wouldn't raise the turn with these hands in the first place.

But, this situation is probably not the best to exemplify my point about paying off rivers for 1 bet after calling the turn with a hand that you aren't drawing correctly for if behind, because I know people will come in with pot size arguments are try to whittle this situation down to being unimportant or much closer than it appears to be on the surface(whereas I believe it is actually less close than it appears on the surface).

A better example of this "call the turn not hoping to improve but folding the river for one bet" comes in a scenario where I see otherwise good players paying off over and over again.

Say you have a smallish pair(44-77) and it's folded to you in late position. You raise and are three-bet by a player who has similar vpip and pfr stats to yours. You haven't noticed him get out of line postflop and deem him generally "solid" but not too tricky or overaggressive. It's folded back to you and you call, deciding to call down unless the board gets too scary. So then, the board doesn't get too scary and you call the turn. Let's say it's J8329 on the river. You check to him and he bets into you. You call down because hey, the board isn't too scary. What % of the time do you think you are good when he bets here? Me, I think it's a huge mistake. Maybe it's night and day from the other hand, but I don't think so. You call the turn hoping you are best, which you very well might be, but I think that once that river bet gets fired you have a whole new set of information. Almost all "good" players will not give you enough credit that they think you can fold a pair or any piece of the board, and will almost always check behind unimproved big aces on the river. OTOH, they will always bet when they are ahead. But alas, I see otherwise good players pay off in situations like these all the time. Maybe they think their reads aren't good enough to make that fold...but reads like that can significantly add to one's hourly rate, IMO.
-James

[fsuplayer]

[ QUOTE ]
You know, it's an auto call-down for me too and I think it's a leak. Maybe it's just that the hands stick in my memory, as hands where we lose with a big overpair to a bigger overpair do, but I have a hard time throwing them away when I "know" I'm beat. (After all, he might have jacks or the other queens right? Feh . . .) Poster says we know him, but I don't know if he's capable of making a play here. But against players who absolutely wouldn't be this frisky with a hand that queens can beat, an auto-call down must be a leak, no?

So ,FWIW, I too just call the turn raise and check-call the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

my thinking and play as well.

[Steve Giufre]

[ QUOTE ]
You know, it's an auto call-down for me too and I think it's a leak. Maybe it's just that the hands stick in my memory, as hands where we lose with a big overpair to a bigger overpair do, but I have a hard time throwing them away when I "know" I'm beat. (After all, he might have jacks or the other queens right? Feh . . .) Poster says we know him, but I don't know if he's capable of making a play here. But against players who absolutely wouldn't be this frisky with a hand that queens can beat, an auto-call down must be a leak, no?

So ,FWIW, I too just call the turn raise and check-call the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I completely agree. There has to be players who wont make a move in this spot, and are also not capable of raising for value here with JJ after it was capped preflop and led at on the flop and turn. I do think maybe I assumed too much when I first replied to this post though. I guess it depends so much on the past history between these two, so maybe James's opponent cant even think of folding here, I dont know.

Its hands like this that make me miss playing live poker all the time. I cant really see laying it down on the net without a ton of player info, since the computer seems to have a way of making people overplay hands in hopeless spots for some reason. In a B&M game, there are so many other things going on, and I feel like I would have a better chance at making a good laydown.

BTW have you been playing much? I'd like to make it out your way soon for some poker.

[surfdoc]

I don't 3 bet this. If you have JJ and were trying for the free showdown play if you missed your gutter then it worked. I am showing down as cheaply as I can unless I catch on the river.

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't 3 bet this. If you have JJ and were trying for the free showdown play if you missed your gutter then it worked. I am showing down as cheaply as I can unless I catch on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you are paying off the river? On the river you only beat a bluff, right? Unless you think I'd value bet JJ..
-James